Mar 2017 Archive, part b

However my Masters degree is taking up a large chunk of my life at the moment, so I don't know how much free time I'd be able to dedicate to it.

This is something I need in my life. I wrote an analytical essay on Skyrim fairly recently. And TES:V is one of my favorite games, ever. I would love to read it.

Though I personally never played Dragonborn, I have thoroughly played through the rest of Skyrim and am fairly familiar with TES at large.

Ehuh, sorry. Please accept this blac-hole chocolate and my welcome.

Have one of my own shed feathers and a complimentary kit of Spikes!

Welcome, welcome, welcome!

Since I am unfortunately not from the Forgotten Realms fandom, I gift you with my full set of Dragonlance novels (main storyline only) with limited edition urple and wilver illustrations.

And since this is the PPC, I calmly remind you to forget about that irritating thing known as sanity.

P.S. Check out the Shipfest, and maybe even participate.

Eee, another Brandon Sanderson fan! Nice to meet you! I'm Alleb, but you can call me Alleb. In the spirit of the Cosmere, I give to you a bead of lerasium. Don't pay any attention to the urple color. Have fun being Mistborn!

-Alleb

Welcome aBoard! Have this piece of a capital ship. That crashed into a planet at interplanetary speeds. It's a shapeless blob of metal. ... Yeah.

Barkbark bark! Bark bark barkbark! Woof!
(Hello there, human! I am a dawg and I like humans very much and I like newbie-humans very muchest!)

Bark bark borf borf barkbark ruff!
(Welcome to the PPC! You excited lots of other dawgs when you said 'Cosmere' but I'm a dawg and I don't even know what that means! I perceive everything as a different type and size of bone!)

Borf borf bark woof, pantpantpant, bark bark!
(My gift upon you is: a dawgbowl! So you can feed us! Please feed us!)

Borfborfborfborfborfborf woof borfborf bark bark borfborfborfborfborfborf!
(Welcome!)

Glad to have you, fellow lurker! Come on in, grab a seat by the fire, and leave your sanity at the door!

Here, take this Replica Holocron and a Mallorn tree Feather token as newbie gifts. Pardon the dust on the Holocron, I've been out of the newbie welcoming game a while.

Forgotten Realms, hmm? Any Particular novels? The only ones I really read were Year of Rogue Dragons and The Brotherhood of the Griffon, but both were excellent series. I should really finish them one of theses days...

Anyway, good to have you aBoard. Hope you enjoy yourself.

Hello, and welcome aBoard! For your newbie gift, take this plate of freshly-made SPaGhetti!

If you haven't yet read them, may I point you towards the Original Series and the Constitution? They're pretty much the only required reading around these parts. Another useful resource you might use is the Wiki; if you have any questions, just look here before asking. We like it when newbies do the research. ;)

Lastly, have an invite to our Discord channel (where the Constitution does still apply).

(Unfortunately, I buy all my D&D books as hardbound from Amazon, so I'm not much help here.)

Hope you stick around for a while!

I particularly like the use of the vibrant blue for her tunic - images done solely in the red-green half of the spectrum tend to look fairly samey to me (red-green colourblind, which may be why), so it's always pleasant to have something that pops out.

I agree with Zingenmir about the bracers, too - they look like they're based on something with extremely large scales, or possibly on pinecones. Nice.

hS

I vaguely remember Basil's name, and this is *excellent*. I think I'd been picturing Agent Alleb as a little younger and with a slightly different face (rounder, not as pointed at the chin), but...wow. This is really, really good! I love the detail and I love how real it looks and yes. Yes, this is very good. And the various leather straps intrigue me.

~Zing

PS: Also, the gauntlets. Those are nice gauntlets. I keep seeing new things when I look back.

That, there, is right brilliant!
I mean, not only is it, as a general picture, really bloody good, but it fits her perfectly. That is the exact face I'd imagine her having, and facial expression and all. Noooooice.

It fits my mental image of her perfectly! Er. In the sense that my mental image of her was girl with blonde-ish hair and muscles and pale skin. My mind is very lazy and vague with these things.
But!
But!
It still fits!

Your sister-in-law is a very good artfellow!

It'd just be silly of me to give you an answer when you already have multiple helpful ones. In the meantime, have my warm welcome to the Board -- and a 75-pack of perfectly ordinary paperclips. They hold paper together, and they come in unassuming metal. With that said, they occasionally gravitate towards the belly fur of cats, so keep an eye on your pets. I wish you all the best here!

Please have some black-hole coffee. Now, you already got several answers, so only thing left is wishing youu welcome... and asking how much you readd about the PPC, and your fandoms.

Welcome, welcome, welcome!

As your newbie gift, have a Lego Mary-Sue figure (the glitter isn't poisonous, don't worry).

Since this is the PPC, please leave your sanity at the door.

Welcome! Have a pile of differently coloured pens!

What's the fix you're working on, a PPC mission or something else? Depending on what it is I'm open to beta.

As for your newbie gift, have a test tube full of technically safe candy coated chocolates.

You're in the right place for finding betas, though I'd recommend getting to know the community a little more before you ask. I hope you stick around! Here's a Ravenclaw scarf and some popcorn to eat while you read the Original Series!

I see that my spelling for beta was accidentally changed to "bets". I am sorry for any inconvenience.

I've been withdrawing from a medication with nasty side effects like anger outbursts and hearing voices, and I posted in a moment of rage. I know that is not an excuse for what I said and I should have known better. I just hope that can at least provide an explanation for why I did what I did.

That being said, I think I should stay away for a while to let things cool down.

I'm so very deeply ashamed and can't say I'm sorry enough.

I mean that. Have fun. Be who you want to be. If the PPC has no place in your happiness, leaving is totally fine. If we were making your happiness impossible? I don't blame you for leaving. All of us should have been there for you.

I never really knew you that well. I never heard you accusing July. I never saw the cruelty. But I still feel like I should have been there for you more.

So go forth and do wonderful things, Iximaz. The people here who love you will be here if you want to talk to us again.

You haven't been protected when you needed it most. The situations with Ekyl and JulyFlame should have been taken more seriously, and we should have acted against GlarnBoudin more promptly. You've been treated horrifically and I understand why you want to leave.

I want to fix this situation. I've been a bystander or enabled abusive situations too often -- I'm going to read everything I can find on preventing abuse and implement it all.

I hope you find somewhere that will treat you better. I hope things start looking up for you. Best of luck and stay strong.

--Key

I sent a mail. I don't know if you'll read it, or that post for that matter, but know this.

I'm your friend. Several other people here are your friends. I'm sure we'll all be waiting for you, or at very last keep in touch with you.

Goodbye, my friend. Please don't go away.

I'll miss you. I don't hate you, or think you did anything wrong. *offers sad hug*

Because if so, that's pretty much the cruelest thing you could have said.

I'm still gonna try to be your friend, though, if you'll let me.

I just want to say that I'm very sorry that this happened, and that you're leaving. Though I suppose it's for the best since the PPC makes you feel like this.

I also want you to know that I consider you a friend, I'm sorry if you didn't know that.

When I said that you really will be missed, I meant it. Not just by me; I'm sure that there are many here who will miss you. You were a big part of this community. And rest assured that I mean every word I said.

Aa' menle nauva calen ar' ta hwesta e' ale'quenle; May your paths be green and the breeze on your back.
Good-bye,
-Jay

Part of this site’s appeal to me is that the community cares for itself, and that the Nameless Admin is nameless because somebody must hold the keys, but they don’t actually want the authority. Having mods, and elections, and impeachments for mods who don’t do their jobs wouldn’t really solve any problems, it would just insert a new layer. We would still all need to work on making this the place we want it to be.

I’m not around as often as I would like to be, and I can’t react to situations I’m not aware of, but I’m personally guilty of not caring enough in at least one case, so I’m not exempt from having to work on that. Thus, here’s a promise: I solemnly swear that I will not act rashly, but that I also will not just sit around shaking my head and waiting for people I’m looking up to, when it’s up to me to call somebody out or – which may more probably be the case – dissolve a mutual misunderstanding.

This may come off as being too forgiving again, but after reading up, I honestly can’t see any bad intentions in this whole mess. Some of us overreacted and were carried away on Discord, and some of us may now be overreacting to this overreaction. Yes, Tomash screwed up big time, but amends have already been made and I trust that what else might be possible to do will be done soon, and there’s also this second chance thing in the Constitution. What could actually be accomplished by banning Tomash – or anybody else – other than telling them that we perform a symbolic act just so they know that they have been punished? I think our collective opinion has been made clear enough, everybody involved in the unintentional witch hunt is already repenting, and banning is far too serious to be used in a symbolic act. Sometimes, banning is necessary to get rid of unbearable nuisances, and if it is not made permanent, this just expresses hope that the person concerned doesn’t need an infinite amount of time to reform. This is certainly not applicable here.

Now, muting people on Discord is something I can get behind. If they are prone to talking before thinking things through, and have shown that they can’t be trusted to behave in an online chat, let them stay silent for a while. If we need to hand out punishments, this is what we should vote about.

HG

First off, I have not been hiding from this issue. I've just been at a friend's house for the past two days. I was very busy there, and I wouldn't have been able to give this discussion a thoughtful response.

I apologize to July for not trying to stop the screenshot from being posted. I was only thinking of it in terms of evidence, and not how it would be an invasion of privacy. This is a very serious deal. I'm very, very, sorry, July. I should've known better. Since I don't even know you at all, I shouldn't have made any comments on the matter.

I apologize to the Discord chat for not helping. I have literally only been part of the PPC for 34 days; add that to the fact that I just vomit out words without thinking when I'm feeling emotional, and you have someone who really should not be part of such an important discussion. In fact, I was pretty aggravating.

I apologize to Ix for being part of this discussion. I don't know enough about Ix, about the Brink incident, about the Glarn incident, about mental health, or really any part of this at all! For crying out loud! Why on earth did I think I could help! So yeah, I feel really stupid. Sorry, Ix, I shouldn't have made myself part of something so important and emotional with so little information.

Of course, the discussion on the Discord is different from the one on the Board. Everyone is supposed to be part of the Board discussion (at least, that's what I'm gathering). But I could have stayed out of the Discord one.

On the subject of bans:
I think Tomash should get a month-long ban at the most. I do think his actions were serious. However, they were meant to help, and that does matter.

Some people have called for Aegis's ban. That's just dumb. He's Ix's boyfriend! I would be worried if he didn't have strong feelings about this! It's only right for him to be agitated about their welfare. Yes, it would have helped for him to take a step back. But that goes for literally everyone on Discord who participated in this fiasco.

For everyone else on the Discord (everyone else participating, that is), I just have to say that we all let things get really out of hand. We should be embarrassed. Though I don't think any bans are in order. Except for one, and that one would be mine. Looking back on it, I realize I acted irresponsibly. As a person with very little information, I shouldn't have tried to be part of the initial argument on Discord. I may be overreacting, but I feel very ashamed of myself, and I think a temporary ban is just.

Lastly, I think mods are a very good idea. I do like the thought of a community where everyone can be responsible. We cannot do that. We clearly need some people who can propose votes, and announce the final decision. For instance, right now there are a million different ideas floating around the Board about what to do. Consequently, no one knows what to do. We're just milling around, voting on this or that idea, and it all comes down to nothing happening.

Sorry if that was slightly incoherent. I'm tired, ashamed of myself, and frustrated with this mess.

Now that two of us are resigned and the others are either asleep at peak hours or not around often, we need more mods, especially now that we have a troll in the chatroom that can't be kicked in the meantime.

I'd like to nominate Maslab and Delta Juliette as replacements since they have proven to be reliable in the past.

I call for the 1 to 6 month ban of Tomash, with length determined as per boarder's decision.

I call for the involved boarders, particularly those mentioned in PoorCynic's revision, for an express written apology to July for the action of Witch Hunting. This is especially applies to Aegis, Alleb, Ekyl, Granz, and Khrstty, for reasons mentioned in PC's post

Let's keep this discussion rational.

Many people feel that I should be banned from the PPC, either permanently or temporarily, because I posted July's real name and face in the Discord chat on Thursday. I again acknowledge that what I did was completely unacceptable, and I cannot overstate my regret that I invaded another PPCer's privacy in such a drastic way.

I acknowledge that there was a remote possibility that what I did could have posed a threat to July's life, and I am horrified that I contributed to the possibility of that. I do, however, feel that, given the rather limited distribution of the screenshot (at most, say 30 people, none of whom I believe would want July killed, could have seen it before it was deleted, and I expect that the number of people who actually saw the information that didn't already know it is much smaller), several people have rather overstated an extremely improbable outcome.

I would like to attempt to describe what I was (or, more importantly, wasn't) thinking when I posted that screenshot. At that time, the chat was considering Iximaz's allegations. I wanted to provide a piece of evidence that would help the community decide whether or not Iximaz was right. I had been discussing that screenshot privately for several days, and, in my mind, it was the "conversation between July and Iximaz". In my emotional disarray at Iximaz's possible death (which was still entirely possible at the time) and how I might have helped cause it, I didn't think through what I was posting. I forgot that screenshot contained July's real name. Not paying attention to that was a terrible mistake, and I yet again apologize to JulyFlame for what I did. It shouldn't have happened.

Now, to those of you calling for a permanent ban, I would like to request my Article 7 second chance. I have stopped (or, in this case, attempted to mitigate the damage). I have apologized. I have come to a more complete realization of what I did. I would like to make amends. I beg all of you to allow me to do so instead of driving me out forevermore!

I don't know what form the amends will take. That is for you, the community, to decide. There need to be consequences for what I did. A common proposal has been a temporary ban from the Discord or the entire PPC community for some length of time. I can't say that wouldn't be an appropriate thing for me to do.

I'm a self-imposed ban (one that, in future debates, could be counted as a ban) from at least the chat if not the whole PPC so I can reflect on my actions in this entire mess. Could y'all please suggest an term? I can't seem to decide what would be a fitting one.

Additionally, several people have reminded us that a permanent ban has, in the past, been reserved for those who are so detrimental to the continued healthy working of the community that their presence will tear the place apart. They haven't been, and I understand, weren't meant to be, a penalty for a first offense by a PPCer who was otherwise in good standing. Is my mistake so terrible a sin that I should be cast out forever? Am I so beyond redemption that I can't be allowed here? Please tell me if you think that, I would like to know where I stand.

There are a few additional things I'd like to point out.

First, I would like to note that this is a much harsher range of proposed responses than were proposed when Matt Cipher harassed July about returning to the Discord. In that case, Matt apologized and resigned his power over the Discord server. To my knowledge, no one called for Matt to be banned. Could we, while voting on this, clarify if the reason for this is that my conduct was so much worse than Matt's or if it's because we have decided to get tougher on wrongdoers? I think answering that question will help the PPC make these decisions in the future.

Secondly, during this thread, there's been many mentions of witch-hunting and mob mentality. I would like to raise the possibility that many of the people involved in the doxxing, potentially including myself, are being unintentionally targeted by an angry mob. I think it's possible that the community, or some parts of if, want something, anything to be done, and my actions and the actions of others in the Discord have made us easy targets for collective anger. That's not saying I don't deserve to be punished for this, but could we all please take a moment to make sure I'm being punished with a clear collective head?

I would also like to ask that, since this is now a community vote, someone start making posts with tallies and such to make it easier to keep track of the status of the vote.

- Tomash

So, I have seen this idea pitched around a few times in the threads below and in Discord Logs. I'll post this here, since I have been considering it for a while.

I think we need to redo the entire Constitution from the ground up. My biggest issue regarding the Constitution is the humor inserted into it. Excerpted below:

1. "This webpage will self-destruct in thirty seconds.

*Hides; several hours pass*

Never mind, then...

*Comes out of hiding*

BOOM!"

2. (And all that other medieval mumbo-jumbo those town criers say. Forsooth verily!)

3. 6. All discovered mimes will be thrown into a pit, which may or may not be filled with various objects such as scorpions upon their availability.

6.5. There will be no clemency for these mimes until they learn the words.

4. There is no Article 19.

5. "Do not meddle in the affairs of assassins! They are heavily armed and quick to anger. And not noticeably subtle."

While I understand these are all quintessentially PPC, I am a firm believer that the rules that govern the community should not be played for laughs at any point. It can come across as saying Oh we really aren't all that serious here. This is a problem. I think the rules should be changed to reflect the fact that they are indeed serious business. I also think that we should streamline and simplify the current iteration as well. We essentially hold a PPC Constitutional Convention. We can trim the fat from the current Constitution, put in new rules that address events that we did not have before, and ensure that it is the best it can be.

I propose to the community that the following actions be taken:

1) That Tomash be permanently banned from the PPC for sharing someone else's guarded information without their knowledge or consent. While it was could be interpreted as a negligent act more than a strictly malevolent one, the fact still stands that it was a gross violation of confidentiality and trust. Plus, as Neshomeh mentioned here, July is an actively serving member of the United States military. This action thus has the genuine potentiality to threaten her life. An appropriate response must be made.

2) That the following indivduals—Alleb, Granz, and Khrssty—be banned from the PPC for a period no less than a year. Their voices seem to have been the main driving force behind this witch hunt. And yes, it was a witch hunt, despite what some of you have repeatedly protested. To say otherwise is to be deliberately blind to something very obvious.

3) That Aegis and Ekyl be banned from the PPC for a period no less than four months. Aegis appears to be the major force behind pushing for the screenshot to be pushed to the board. He has also exacerbated the situation through his actions in Discord and muddied events due to his recent postings on the Board. His behavior in the logs suggests that he had already judged July as being guilty. Ekyl, on the other hand, seems to have been a regularly present voice, poking along the chat with comments such as "And let's not make it out like July is some angel who's never wronged anybody ever" or "But these feelings have existed for a long time among many people". An agitator, if you will.

4) That the remaining PPCers who were privy to this incident but did nothing to stop it make an official public apology to July. That includes Desdendelle, Akrinor, Storme Hawk, Matt Cypher, SkarmorySilver, Jay - Awesomeness Central, and Hardric. If the PPC had some form of official censure between that and ban, I would have asked for it, but that's how things go.

I have no doubt that this proposal will be heavily debated. I welcome your input and hope that we can come together on some sort of agreement.

PoorCynic

As I am sure you are all well aware, recently I have been distant from the PPC. My job and it's fluctuating hours are in large part to blame for this, as with other real life commitments. By no means was this because I care for the community any less than I ever have. However, clearly I have not been nearly as approachable, nor as good of a friend as I would have liked to be. I have been supposedly active during a number of instances where I should have been a a friend, a means of support, but I was gone. I am so sorry Ix. I should have been a better friend. I don't even know if I deserve that title. I can only hope to be better in the future. I'm so sorry. Truly, I am.

That. All. Being. Said.

Guys.

What are we doing.

I don't like to sick my head into drama. It gets nasty, and I feel this community often guides itself towards the right path sooner or later. However, this time, there has been a while lot of yelling, and not a lot of action. So. Here I am to try and throw my voice in.

First, and foremost, accusations of harassment are extremely serious, and should be treated as such. Our reaction process has been slow in the past, mostly due to inaction on members of the community. I am part of this problem. As stated, I stay out of drama, as I trust cooler heads to judge. So, I feel that we need swifter action to examine and, if necessary, punish those who are harassing other members of this community. Clearly, asking for board-wide approval takes far, far too long for any feeling of closure. For the Discord, this is simple: mods need to bring down kicks harder and sooner. Not necessarily bans, but make it very clear when people have been out of line. Hit them with a warning. Second offense, a kick. Third, a temp ban, potentially permanent depending on severity. Also depending on severity, might skip the warning and jump straight to kicking. Needs to be done, needs to have been done a while ago.

However, for board, and community-wide response, this is trickier. My initial reaction is to have a panel of judges, to overview and determine:
1. Is there a case of wrongdoing
2. How we respond
The natural candidates for these judges are Permission Givers. We already, as a community, trust them to determine who can write in our shared universe. However, my hesitation towards giving them this extra responsibility is that it would put too much onto the plates of these select people. When they signed up for the job, all they asked for was to read stories and say if the author could write reasonably well. Now, we would be asking them to become effectively moderators. We have resisted the use of moderators on the Board for a long time, for many valid reasons. However, I think it has been clearly shown that we need faster, more decisive judgement. Moderators seem to be the best way of doing that.

Now, onto the issue of banning people right now. In my view, there is only one person who should possibly, maybe, be banned, and that is Tomash. Now, in my view, he has been shamed enough, has been shown quite thoroughly the error of his ways, and has profusely apologized for what he has done. Do not take this to mean I endorse what he did. It was a despicable act, and I do not blame those who want to see him banned. But, in my view, he has gone though enough. Consider this a NO BAN vote, but I will not object if we rule to ban.

However, the others on Desdendelle's little list: under no circumstances should they be banned at all. If I believe Tomash has received enough of a beating, lord knows I am not in favor of harsh punishment towards those members of the community either. Now, let me make this very, very clear. If you stood by while somebody was doxxed, or heaven help me, endorsed it at the time, you were in the severe wrong. What was done was immoral to a high degree, and may in fact be illegal. Shame on you. However, that is all that reprimand that should be done on these members. I feel this extreme outburst we have had as a community shows how we feel about the subject: we do not approve, and will not allow it to happen again. If it does, for any reason, to anybody, after this little debacle? I might be less forgiving. However, for now, we as a community need to heal. And we don't heal and repair by banning half the user base.

So, in conclusion, I feel it is high time this community has official moderators, who are elected to judge and enforce rules on behalf of the community at large. We have been too slow before. It is time to change it. Other then that, no changes needed to the Constitution. I feel that particular document is very, very clear and very well-written. Far more so than any other online community I can think of. We just need people to enforce it.

Posting for the third time now, I want everyone who is part of the PPC to not post anything on the board related to the incident that happened. What everyone needs to do is cool down and rethink and let the emotions subside.




I am only posting this because I have seen multiple people post on the board expressing their disgust and using words most commonly used in desperation or when the person is not thinking straight.

These thoughts might not mean all that much to most of you, as I have largely receded into semi-lurker status, but I need to express them regardless. Good job, folks. You've really ticked me off.

First off, Iximaz? I am sorry for everything you are going through. It's obviously a difficult time for you, and you have my sympathy. Get well soon.

Now then, as for those involved in the railroading of JulyFlame… screw you. Screw you all. Sorry, I tried to think of something diplomatic to say, but I'm coming off of a nasty illness and pretty much coughed up the last of my available diplomacy this morning. What on Earth possessed you all to do something so craven, so stupid, so… very much against the spirit of this community? I certainly see a lot of excuses being cited by those involved: fear, anger, good intentions. Great, yeah. Acting on those has never backfired on anyone ever.

But I'm sure most of you just wanted what was best for your friend. Fair enough. I would hope that you all learn a lesson from this. If nothing else, you might learn to stop before you do something and consider how what you say, or what you write, might hurt someone. Maybe not the person you're talking to, but someone. Somewhere. Remember, this is the Internet.

On a personal note, I would like to share with you all how utterly disappointed I am to see the community as it is now. There are a couple of unnamed people in this thread whose actions and excuses have downright disgusted me. I would hope that those people come to their senses, but I sincerely doubt they will.

Regarding the open Discord mod positions, I say this: I will oppose the appointment or election of anyone to that position who was involved in this incident. And it will be a vocal opposition.

Sometime tomorrow morning, I will be posting a revised ban proposal. It will not be as… dramatic as Desdendelle's, but it will exist and it will be serious. What occurred was a violation of privacy, of confidentiality, of trust. Some sort of corrective action needs to be taken.

Wikipedia has this thing called an interaction ban. Basically, it's an enforced agreement not to interact with each otheR. Maybe agreement isn't the best term but I can't think of a better one right now. Anyways, if the two people involved start talking again more consequences happen.

My question is:
Would this be a good idea in the context of the PPC?

The things that were done to July here were absolutely despicable. Doxxing someone is not only illegal, it's highly immoral, and in this case it might put July in direct danger. I demand that everybody involved in that discussion be banned forthwith. If I need to be banned as well (whether as part of that discussion or for some other reason) then so be it.

I call for the ban of Tomash. I call for the ban of Alleb. I call for the ban of Akrinor. I call for the ban of Granz. I call for the ban of palindromordnilap. I call for the ban of Storme Hawk. I call for the ban of Khryssty. I call for the ban of Matt Cipher. I call for the ban of Ekyl. I call for the ban of SkarmorySilver. I call for the ban of Silenthunder. I call for the ban of Jay - Awesomeness Central. I call for the ban of Hardric. I call for the ban of Aegis. Finally, if I need to be banned as well, then so be it.

This community should be ashamed that it let such disgusting behaviour come to pass. This community should send the strongest possible message that this sort of behaviour will not be tolerated. This community owes July at least a modicum of justice.

The Discord chat (or specifically, the people present yesterday) owe(s) July and apology for the witch hunt conducted against her yesterday. I don't think a discussion about bullying can be held in clear conscience while that's still in the air.

This went downhill very quickly. That is all

I've been sans-Internet the last couple of days due to moving to a new apartment, I'm tired, and I'm sick of crap like this, so I'm not going to say much right here.

However, I think it is important to note that neither July, nor Ekyl, nor GlarnBoudin have been particularly active, nor—as far as I'm aware—so much as spoken to Iximaz since the incidents she mentioned as driving her to self-harm, quitting, etc. I have strong feelings about things like this due to Tray-Gnome's attempts to turn the community on me by claiming I was making them feel unsafe just by existing, despite also not having spoken to them since one single incident where we had an Issue (which I had apologized for and taken a leave of absence after, incidentally). I don't think this paints a picture of people who are bullies.

More when I'm more sane, please don't burn down the Board while I'm otherwise occupied, thanks.

~Neshomeh

We need to be less reluctant to punish wrongdoers. I know I always want to think the best of everyone, and I think that the community in general gives too much benefit of the doubt, even when it isn't deserved. We need to act more quickly -- don't get me wrong, we need to treat people as innocent until proven guilty, but we need to act immediately once we get proof. I agree with what was said below: our ban votes are too long.

First step to take: we Discord mods need to be quicker to kick. I know no one likes punishing people we know, but this needs to happen, and kicks are pretty temporary.

However, we should stop having a freely available, eternal Discord invite on the wiki. This would require us to invite each newbie and returnbie separately, but would mean that kicked members would have to PM a mod to get back in, allowing the mods to impose cool-down periods/bans. These would not be unilateral actions by one mod: if one person was being unreasonable, the person being unfairly banned could contact a different mod and get back in.

--Key has lots of thoughts, this is just a start

Assuming what she said about us as a community is true, we should educate ourselves on ways to a) know when we're bullying someone, b) know when we're being an apologist, and c) stop both of those. Seafarer's suggestion of handling JulyFlame before anything else also has a certain amount of sense to it.

I wish I had a more substantial answer, but I'm not as involved in the community as some of you. I do care about the mental health of everyone in it, which is why Iximaz's post troubles me.

Firstly: we need some kind of moderator.

If someone's being bullied, how can they get help? What can they do? Every method of bringing the community's attention to this kind of thing involves posting something publicly - where the bully can see it. There's no safe, private communication that a victim can use to get help.

I would suggest a few trusted members of the community become that safe space. If someone feels victimised, they can contact one of those people directly. That way, the burden is off the victim - the mod (or whatever title you give them) can review and collect evidence (through forwarded emails, or being given access to the Google Doc, or whatever), and then they can be the one to present it to the community at large.

I'm also not really convinced that the entire community really needs a vote. We need clear guidelines about what punishment goes with what offence, and if we make those clear enough, a simple look at the evidence should be enough for the mod(s) to declare the punishment. Certainly, the evidence should be posted on the Board for all to review, and there may be some debate as to what level applies, but the final decision should be delegated to avoid the lengthy, time-wasting votes that we usually have.

But that isn't the thing that should happen first.

The community has been failing its members. Ix is the third person I've seen name JulyFlame as the perpetrator of bullying. July has driven at least three people from the community with her(?) behaviour. The first thing to do is decide what to do about her.

Some of the articles of the Constitution (specifically 1 and 10.5) say that bullying will not be tolerated. That's all they say. I mean, 10.5 does say that persistent rule-breakers will be asked to leave the community, but that's not enough. Nowhere in the Constitution is a procedure given for exactly what to do.

What I'm trying to say is that we need an addition to the Constitution detailing exactly what we should do if a situation like this comes up again. For instance: we could add that we won't just let a situation subside; a rule that says we continue discussing about said situation until a decision is reached, no matter how long that takes. Something like that.

Final point: we desperately need an article that somehow, someway, keeps us from being complacent about things and just letting them slide after some time.

Ok, so. I know I have no power over any of you but I would like to respectfully request that July not be mentioned again in this conversation. This conversation was not meant to be about July. It was meant to be about fixing problems, not crusading.

Frankly, I'm ashamed of a lot of you, Tomash and Des especially. While I understand both of your points, the way you handled everything was frankly, unacceptable.

I joined this community for good writing and the humor. There was a lot of that then. Now that I'm back, it's been chaos and if we can't get it together, I don't know how much more of good writing and humor will be left.

I'm considering leaving.
If I do, I won't be looking back.

Rough estimates:

1 PPC AU
1+ Shipfics
The Purim RP opener and opening post (getting close!)
5ish missions? Not counting ones I haven't touched in a looong time and not counting one recent cowritten one?
At least one interlude, probably? Not counting 1 cowritten one?
The Blackout Interlude. SOMEDAY IT SHALL BE COMPLETED. REALLY.
Some non-PPC stuff.

Yeah. Stuff. Things.

And one great big important interesting essay due on Fridaaaay!

~Zing

PS: Is that enough? Shall I add more? Believe me, I have plans. Someday soon, I hope you'll get to see some of them in action.

A cowrite with Skarmory to a Monster Hunter/Hunger Games crossover, and a solo mission to an MCU fic. Also a pending mission to a Steven Universe fic, which I'll get back to when I have slightly less on my plate.

I wasn't, not with work, but I feel it's high time to get some writing done. I'm going to try to finally, once and for all, take out My Little Unicorn: Magic is Believing. Or, you know, some smaller badfic if that one proves to be a bit much right now.

Well, I'm doing it when I manage to get enough time to do it, so it's sporadic at best. I'm also thinking abouut my next solo mission, or cowrite, after publishing one at the very end of February.

Oh, and Tomash, there is something I have been thinking about for a while after I got your feedback for this last mission. Could I get your mail to discuss about it?

* A Star Wars mission I actually have plotted out to some extent, I just haven't written the bloody thing.

* A co-write that stopped being a thing ages ago I might just take over and finish myself if Cassie OKs it.

* Finally starting that DIA-based spinoff I hinted at with "DIA: Introductions" six and a half years ago(!!!)

* A Firefly mission

* An interlude set in the Pennacook Club

* A different one set in Rudi's

* A Mysterious Project I'm not going to tell any of you about because it's supposed to be a surprise...

((i.e. terrible))

Item: An interlude set during the formation of a whole new support division

Item: Two Doktor Trollenfisch und Gabrielle missions, one of which features never-before-seen minis, one of which is a fairly big deal

Item: Multiple crossovers involving Algie and Lola, though at least one is on the back burner for now.

Item: The planning of the big mission, Wayfinding. It's not big for "Super-Skerreh Legendary" reasons, though it definitely counts as a bleepfic, but for plot. What it concerns I cannot say, but I can tell you it's a crossover between multiple agent teams.

I have an interlude ready for beta reading and one more in the works, and I've been working on a new mission on and off for about three months now, along with collabs with at least two other people. With luck I should be able to have the interludes at the minimum posted this month, but no promises.

Actually, if you want to beta-read the interludes, I can send 'em to you via PM. I only have one beta so far for them and I guess another can't hurt, can it? ;)

It's a bit about how Agent Peregrin fell into HQ inspired by a writing prompt in the Discord about two months back. It's stalled on account of a combination of writer's block and massive piles of real-life stuff. It might get finished by the end of the year at the rate things are going. Or it might not.

No missions at the moment because I haven't gone looking for a badfic recently, and because I recently decided my self-insert would suck as an agent, so I've re-parntered Peregrin and am still trying to get the hang of the semi-now agent pair.

I'd certainly be interested, although my knowledge of D&D is sparse. I'm more used to Black Crusade, though I'm always up for expanding my horizons.

'Course it looks like you've got more than enough players already.

I haven't played since the 3.5 days, and I didn't play very well then due to being 8 years old and not understanding anything at all. So, if you don't mind sending some resources my way to help me figure it all out, sure!

Even then I won't know what I'll be doing, but that's not the point here

What edition?

I'd gladly join in, though I'd need to know the edition before I could figure out what I'm doing.

Haven't played any RPGs before, but I'd like to take a swing at it.

I've never played D&D, but I wouldn't mind trying given how many other tabletop RPGs I've done.

I mean, the PPC Discord does have a dedicated chat and voice channel for non-PPC roleplaying, so you could host it there.

I'd also like to know what edition you're thinking of running, because this affects the amount of weirdness I can crowbar into one character.

I would like to play, but I have a feeling that my schedule will be very limited.
Which edition were you thinking of using?

First, as Iximaz said, you're missing writing prompts, and a badfic you intend to spork, too. Everything else is here, so if you've got 'em and just forgot to post them, I'll wait before giving a verdict. Otherwise, the writing samples are really the most important thing we need to see, so without them I will have to deny Permission for now.

In the meantime, comments on what you've got:

1) Conrad. I know several people have standing concerns about agents from the 40k universe due to its grimdark nature, and I'd like it of one or two of them weighed in. I don't personally see too much of that in Conrad's profile, but I am concerned about the "short but painful/humiliating revenge" bit. What does that actually mean in practice? Also, to a lesser degree, the dark sense of humor. Lots of agents indulge in a bit of black humor now and then, but given the 40k factor, how dark is dark here?

2) Elly. Mostly looks fine, but she regrets joining the PPC? Seriously, or jokingly? Cuz I'm sure a lot of agents would moan about not knowing what they were getting into when they signed up, but most of them wouldn't quit if you paid them, either. Since they, er, don't get paid, it's really love and/or devotion that keeps most of them going.

3) RC 819. This is where I have the most serious concerns. First of all, if you read enough older spin-offs, you'll note that a standard RC back in the day was no bigger than a college dorm: one room and a closet, maybe a toilet if you're lucky. If this is an older RC, it was built to that design, and there's no way even the most dedicated reconstructionists force that into the two-bedroom apartment shape you describe.

I also object to the two-bedroom apartment RC on principle. I know there's precedent at this point, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. You're not supposed to spend time in your RC; it's just for crashing in during the few scant hours between missions. Also, HQ was originally built by sapient Flowers with little to no understanding of the needs of mammals. It just doesn't work for me, and it never will.

I'm also not a huge fan of non-standard BEEPs, but heck, Dies Irae is cool. Not particularly funny, IMO, but oh well.

I actually like the thought you put into the RC's history, though. That's a welcome bit of added depth that I don't often see.

~Neshomeh, holding her PG hat at the ready.

Next time you ask for Permission, please look at this page for what to do... like including prompts, for instance.

The second thing: I barely recognize your name. Be a bit more involved in the PPC, let us get to know you.

If anyone else wants to provide concrit of your agents, I'll let them handle that. I'm too tired to do it properly right now.

Count me in!

I'd definitely be up for this. We'd have to figure out a few rules, decide which sites are off limits (There's a few sites out there which while they would have most of the things on any given list, need brain bleach to enter, read and exit), set a start and end date and come up with some really interesting items for the list.

... that it has to be from a fic posted/updated in the last seven days? Or 'more recently than seven days before the game starts', to allow for stuff posted during the game. That lets you filter out stuff people already know, and I'm sure most archives let you sort by date. (Could be a month if you want to allow for smaller fandoms.

You could also ask people to name one fandon they'll be hunting in. Bonus points (no actual points included) go to people who choose smaller fandoms.

Looks interesting.

hS

Bans for Tomash

-Permaban: 2 (*Desdendelle, *PoorCynic)
-1 year ban: 1 ([EvilAI]UBEROverlord)
-3-6 month ban: 3 (*Iximaz, Sergio Turbo, Seafarer)
-1-3 month ban: 11 (Jay - Awesomeness Central, Phobos, doctorlit, OrangeYoshi99, Neshomeh, Novastorme, Tomash, Mattman the Comet, The Good Mod Addict, Akrinor, Zingenmir)
-TOTAL BANS: 17 [49% of total]

-NO BAN: 13 (*Aegis, *SkarmorySilver, *Granz, Huinesoron, DrGonzo, World-Jumper, Delta Juliette, Badger421, The Triumvirate, VixenMage, Matt Cipher, Alleb, Hieronymus Graubart)

-Explicit abstain: 5 (leafeyes, eatpraylove, Scapegrace, Ekyl, ninny4370)

-TOTAL VOTES: 35 (*6 + 29)

Drawing purely from this thread:

Board Mods

-Mods: 6 (Jay - Awesomeness Central, Novastorme, The Good Mod Addict, Ekyl, ninny4370, [EvilAI]UBEROverlord)
-No Mods: 15 60% of total
-Explicit abstain: 4 (leafeyes, eatpraylove, Scapegrace, The Triumvirate)
-TOTAL VOTES: 25

Discord Muting

-Involved users muted: 6 (*Scapegrace, Neshomeh, Sergio Turbo, Zingenmir, Alleb, Hieronymus Graubart)
-Discord closed: 1 (OrangeYoshi99)

1. No mods.
   
   2. Nobody needs to be banned. But since we can't do nothing, let Tomash, Alleb, Granz and Khryssty be muted on Discord for three months. (I'm not sure whether this is an exhaustive list of main offenders.) Let everybody else who has seen this screenshot and didn't ask to take it down be muted for at least one month. This is, even if you showed some concern about taking it to the Board without blurring the face and real name, you still get one month. I'm so late because I tried to read through the log again and to decide who deserves two months, but I can't. It's difficult to follow the conversation and I probably don't get all the undertones; thus I can't really tell who contributed how much to the unhealthy atmosphere, and every decision I made would feel unjust. Now that you had time to think about it, may I just ask all of you to sort yourself into House Three-Months, House Two-Months, House One-Month and House Totally-Innocent? (This may be a mute point. Since I didn't see Des giving the Keys to anybody else, I have no idea what will happen to the Discord.)
   
   3. Abstain.
   
   HG

I vote no ban for Tomash.

I vote for my own 1-3 month muting on the Discord.

I vote for Maslab and Delta as Discord mods.

-Alleb

1. No Board mods. Between the Nameless Admin being able to change or take down posts if necessary (and deal with trolls and spambots and so on), and level-headed people in general stepping in when things get heated in the 'this is no longer a friendly debate' sense (seriously, we've had almost entirely polite political debates. In most cases, we're capable of not even needing someone to step in on the Board), I don't think mods are necessary nor do I see what they'd really add. At most, it'd be a tiny bit of extra authority for a level-headed person who's stepping in to tell people to go cool off, and since it'd also come with a bunch more extra stress for that person/those people, it doesn't seem like a great trade-off. My vote is no mods.
   
   2. I am not touching this. I do not want to touch this. This entire affair disgusts me and I do not want to spend even more time trying (and mostly failing) to sort out what I think an appropriate response would be. At most (okay, I'm touching it a little bit), I suppose I agree with Tomash (and a number of other people) that he should take a break for a bit. How long that break actually is, I'll let the rest of you decide. I support 2-3 months as the minimum, though I'm not sure anything less than that has even been suggested (I stand corrected, there's 1 month in there too. I don't support 1 month; put me down as 2-3 minimum).
   
   Actually, one more thing: there was a proposal a while back to mute some of the users who'd been involved in the anti-July...'discussion' (and I'm using that word loosely). That is, to mute them on the Discord for, I believe, 1-3 months, or maybe 1-2. I support that idea (at 1-2 months) for the people who were most involved--not for everyone, but for the people who were really spearheading it. Guys, you need to learn to take a step back and think for a bit when emotions are running high, especially your own. You need to learn to take a break and cool off. Even if that means actually saying 'I am not clear-headed right now and I'm going to take a break and come back in a few hours/tomorrow. Please don't make any important decisions without me. Please take a step back yourselves if you feel your anger is clouding your judgement as well.' If muting you will make you think about it and make the idea stick in your memory, I am all for it.
   
   This also applies when you don't yet have a strong opinion of your own. Take a step back if you need to, read up on what's going on, get more information. Don't judge blindly based on one bit of information that you have no context for. Again, you can explicitly state that that's what you're doing: 'I don't have enough information about this yet, and I'm going to step away from this discussion until I know more.' Either that or call for more information for everyone. It doesn't hurt to learn more, and it doesn't hurt to reserve judgement until you do. Try it.
   
   You are all adults or young adults (yes, I'm including the teenagers in this). If you don't have this skill yet, you need to try to build it. This is a community of real people, even if many of us will never meet; and you need those skills both for here in the PPC (and in any other online community you will ever join) as well as in the real world, for your jobs and your lives and your friends and your families and potentially your SOs. Learn how to take a step back and cool off in tense situations. I promise you, you need this skill. We all need this skill. I strongly suggest you work on it, and that goes for everyone here who doesn't already have it, whether you were involved in this discussion or not. It's a very useful skill to have, and developing it is one way to guard against things like what happened last week.
   
   Votes summed up: Break or ban for Tomash for 2-3 months minimum. Mute the users who were most involved in the July...'discussion' for at least 1-2 months on the Discord server. Everyone, work on learning how to take a step back to cool off when emotions are running high. Also consider waiting for more information before judging a complex situation in the future.
   
   3. The Discord. Hrm. Well, I agree with a few of the things that have been mentioned, and they range from serious to minor.
   
   A. Yes please do a 'best of the Discord' post (as proposed here). Or maybe make it a blog on the wiki that gets linked to from the Board whenever a new post goes up. It could also be linked to from the wiki page called "PPC Lounge," and if it's a post, the information should be archived and linked to there or else transferred onto the page. I think it's a great way to bridge the gap between Boarders and Discorders (both for Boarders who never go there and for Discorders who've been away for a while and want to know what they've missed). It's also a great way to share some fun things, and maybe even snippets of especially good RPs from time to time? This might actually work better as a collaborative Board post (one person starts it every, say, month, and other Discorders slowly or quickly add things to it. Please remember that if you want to share something that's a quote or an RP piece rather than just a general 'this is something that generally happens', you need to get the permission of everyone involved. In fact, do that anyway. Another idea for things to add to this: bits of some of the punversations. Again, with the permission of everyone involved). This could also be done in the format of putting the information from the Board post into a wiki blog post, which is then linked to on the "PPC Lounge" page. People could even take turns making the blog post, so that the responsibility doesn't all fall on one person.
   
   B. I think hS has some good points in his 'About the Discord:' post below. I'm just going to comment on the ones I either agree with completely or would modify slightly.
   
   Case in point: I'd modify the positive discussion a little, since I know how much easier it can be to express your opinion of a new mission in chat form: do that in the Discord if you like, but then post it on the Board. While it's very nice if the author happens to have a friend who hangs out in the Discord and will pass it on, it's really not the same as seeing the words yourself. So rephrase it, copy and paste what you yourself said, get a volunteer to compile a review from what several people have said/agreed with--and post it on the Board.
   
   As for making decisions in the Discord...yeah. If it's a big, important decision, if it's even something like a big PPC canon question (that would, say, change the canon or add something major to it) that could use more than 1-2 answers from people who know what they're talking about, I'd say put it on the Board. If it's a very emotional decision that isn't a personal, non-PPC related question (say, if you have a grievance or you're thinking of leaving or something and it's something you want to discuss publicly rather than talking only to the people or person involved in private or in private with someone willing to mediate there as well), bring it to the Board. Let it move slower, let it simmer, let people have time to weigh in and most importantly to think about it before they weigh in. Obviously some matters won't fall under this, and if you're only comfortable talking it through via DMs or group DMS as opposed to publicly in the Discord or publicly on the Board, keep it there. But if it's a big PPC-related decision, or something that you want a lot of hopefully well-thought out opinions on--bring it to the Board. I agree with hS that it won't solve everything--but it should certainly help in a lot of cases. And it also ensures that a, you get a mix of oldbies and newbies responding instead of just whoever happens to be on at the time, b, people who don't feel qualified to answer can leave it for someone else, and c, people who don't initially know how to answer get a chance to think it through and come up with something if they can.
   
   C. I vote against closing the Discord entirely, whether short-term or long-term. I don't think that's necessary and I don't think it'll solve anything.
   
   Discord votes summed up: A 'best of the Discord' post or blog post every month or so would be amazing. I support bringing most big decisions to the Board, especially if they're PPC community-related or PPC canon-related. And I do not support closing the Discord entirely, whether short-term or long-term.
   
   ~Zingenmir

Votes carried over from the previous thread are *asterisked.

-Permaban: 2 (*Desdendelle, *PoorCynic)
-1 year ban: 1 ([EvilAI]UBEROverlord)
-3-6 month ban: 3 (*Iximaz, Sergio Turbo, Seafarer)
-1-3 month ban: 11 (Jay - Awesomeness Central, Phobos, doctorlit, OrangeYoshi99, Neshomeh, VixenMage, Novastorme, Tomash, Mattman the Comet, The Good Mod Addict, Akrinor)
-TOTAL BANS: 17 [50% of total]

-NO BAN: 12 (*Aegis, *SkarmorySilver, *Granz, *Hieronymus Graubart, Huinesoron, DrGonzo, World-Jumper, Delta Juliette, Badger421, The Triumvirate, VixenMage, Matt Cipher)

-Explicit abstain: 5 (leafeyes, eatpraylove, Scapegrace, Ekyl, ninny4370)

-TOTAL VOTES: 34 (*7 + 27)

Drawing purely from this thread:

-Mods: 6 (Jay - Awesomeness Central, Novastorme, The Good Mod Addict, Ekyl, ninny4370, [EvilAI]UBEROverlord)
-No Mods: 13 52% of total
-Explicit abstain: 4 (leafeyes, eatpraylove, Scapegrace, The Triumvirate)
-Implicit abstain: 2 (Phobos, doctorlit)
-TOTAL VOTES: 25

hS

1) I vote no mods.
2) I vote for a ban of 1 month at most for Tomash
3)I support the notion of keeping the Discord.

I'm going with no mods on Discord (that was the very original idea that was circulating while setting up the server) and no bans.

Votes carried over from the previous thread are *asterisked.

-Permaban: 2 (*Desdendelle, *PoorCynic)
-3-6 month ban: 3 (*Iximaz, Sergio Turbo, Seafarer)
-Long-term ban (unspecified): 1 (*[EvilAI]UBEROverlord)
-1-3 month ban: 10 (Jay - Awesomeness Central, Phobos, doctorlit, OrangeYoshi99, Neshomeh, VixenMage, Novastorme, Tomash, Mattman the Comet, The Good Mod Addict)
-TOTAL BANS: 16 [48% of total]

-NO BAN: 12 (*Akrinor, *Alleb, *Aegis, *SkarmorySilver, *Granz, *Hieronymus Graubart, Huinesoron, DrGonzo, World-Jumper, Delta Juliette, Badger421, The Triumvirate)

-Explicit abstain: 5 (leafeyes, eatpraylove, Scapegrace, Ekyl, ninny4370)

-TOTAL VOTES: 33 (*10 + 23)

And drawing purely from this thread:

-Mods: 5 (Jay - Awesomeness Central, Novastorme, The Good Mod Addict, Ekyl, ninny4370)
-No Mods: 12 52% of total
-Explicit abstain: 4 (leafeyes, eatpraylove, Scapegrace, The Triumvirate)
-Implicit abstain: 2 (Phobos, doctorlit)
-TOTAL VOTES: 23

There is currently an absolute majority against mods, though this can easily change. There is not an absolute majority in favour of banning Tomash, though again, if one of the previous thread's no ban votes flips, there would be.

There has been some discussion previously on whether explicitly abstaining votes count in favour of the status quo (which would be 'no ban, no mods'), or should just be discounted altogether (and therefore exist basically to say 'yup, I read this thread'). Whenever you announce the decision, you should probably decide which interpretation you favour - it's the difference between Tomash having 48% or 57% in favour of banning him right now.

hS

1) I am for mod, we need some form of power here, to maintain order 2) I'm gonna abstain, I want to keep my head attached.

I will let my ban vote stand.

On moderators, I have to say no. The source of the current issue was that many of us (including me) acted on incomplete information. That's not something that having mods would have prevented, and I agree with many people here that we've done a good job of keeping this place civil without any.

As I don't visit the Discord, I have no opinion on its functioning.

1. Yes to mods. We've tried anarchy, it hasn't worked.
   2. Abstain. Conflict of interest since I'm one of the ones whose heads have been called for.
   3. I think the Discord is fine, we just have to be far more diligent in there.

I only have a vote for bans, which is that no bans be made.

Mods: I don't think we need mods on the Board.The Nameless Admin, so far, has been more than enough in my humble opinion.

Bans:
- A medium term "global" ban for Tomash (3-6 months). One year bans are usually reserved for those who don't come to their senses and apologize, while Tomash did - but, at the same time, apologizing should not be a "get-out-of-jail" card when very serious offenses are made. It is not a matter of revenge, or punishment for punishment's sake, but a matter of consequences, as I mentioned in my other post.

- A short-medium Discord ban for the ones involved in the witch-hunting (1-3 months), coupled with a shorter Board ban as well (2 weeks - 1 month), with the same reasoning as above.

About the Discord, I'm afraid I have no ideas. I've never been a big user of large chatrooms, after all.

1. Mods would be good, I think. I know I can't be trusted to do the right thing in telling people something isn't okay, let alone actually dangerous to someone's health in some way. I don't have any suggestions on who should be a mod, though.
   
   2. Bans. I feel a bit uncomfortable voting on this one, but I think a 3-month ban for Tomash might be needed. Considering the lack of consensus, though, I doubt that will happen.
   
   3. The Discord. I don't think anything needs to be changed, but I do like the idea of having all of us become more educated on the subject of cyberbullying. If we can find good online resources about how to recognize it and break the mob mentality, that would be great going forward. Assuming such resources are found, it may be a good idea to link them in the Wiki next to the space about the Discord, and post them in the notice channel for good measure.
   
   Unfortunately, I don't know good resources for information on that. I'm just throwing ideas around. I am not in favor of getting rid of the Discord, either temporarily or permanently, but I also think that changing nothing isn't going to be helpful to anyone.

I vote for a 1-3 month ban for Tomash, as priorly mentioned in my ban revision thread.

I also vote no mods, for obvious reasons.

I would like to second Tomash's idea for a "Best of" page on the wiki. In the meantime, my CAHQ deck "Cards Against Boarders" should suffice.

No mods. I happen to think that our anarchic culture mostly works. In general, we do a good job of being friendly, calling each other on our bad behavior, and being remorseful and honestly trying to improve when we screw up. If you look around all the threads that spawned from this whole mess, you'll find piles of our community working as it should.

That doesn't mean we're perfect. The entire witch-hunt in the Discord is a prime example of that. While that was going on, many of us stopped acting the way we should and either turned into an angry mob or stood there and didn't call anyone out on what they were doing. We need to examine how and why that happened, and make serious efforts to not do things like that again. Hopefully we can learn appropriate lessons from what went down that will make the PPC an even better place to hang out on the Internet.

Now, on my ban. I'm going to do something that I don't remember happening before, and vote for my own ban. I'm in favor of my being banned for 1-3 months, either from the Discord or from participation in the PPC generally. There have to be consequences for what I did. It doesn't feel right for me to get away with just a resignation after what I did, even if it was a mistake. The vote seems to be (at the time of writing) split exactly evenly between banning me or not, so it looks like i might be going harder on myself than the community is.

Now, on the Discord, this isn't a proposal for massive changes. However, I'm now (especially since July's post got me reading some of the old discussions about the IRC and drama there) slightly concerned about the possibility of a cultural split between PPCers who visit the chat often and PPCers who don't. I figure one small thing that can be done to try and make sure we don't get this is for, every once in a while, people to "best of" the chat and summarize the longer-lasting jokes/trends onto the Board and/or Wiki. (We already have a wiki page for chat quotes from back in the IRC days, might be worth revitalizing).

To give an example of what I'm on about, Maslab has a reputation in chat for puns. That reputation was long-standing and widespread enough that we ended up adding Maslab's avatar (a picture of a fox) as a custom emoticon on the Discord. So, if you're in chat and you make a pretty good (or pretty bad, but what's the difference?) pun, you're likely to get your message reacted to with a :Maslab: . Now some of y'all who don't really visit chat know a bit more about what we've been up to in there other than starting mobs and drama.

1) No mods. In addition to the issues others have raised, I feel mods are ill-suited to our community. They depend, I think, on a certain level of detachment from all parties involved in a dispute. That lack of bias seems rather more difficult to attain in a close knit community like ours. Perhaps they could be made to work, but would they work so much better than what we have now as to justify the change? I don't think so. Then again, I've never really been part of a community that uses them, so perhaps this is simply my inexperience talking.

2) No bans. As I mentioned in my previous post, if disciplinary action must be taken, I don't think bans are the right tool.

3) I can't think of anything we can do to improve the Discord, so I'll abstain from that vote.

Because I'm antsy and maths calms me down.

-Permaban: 2
-6 month ban: 4
-Long-term ban (unspecified): 1
-1-3 month ban: 6
-TOTAL BANS: 13

-NO BAN: 13

-Explicit abstain: 3

-TOTAL VOTES: 29

And drawing purely from this thread:

-Mods: 1
-No Mods: 7

hS

1) No mods. What we need is a culture change, and those don't happen top-down. Additionally, there's no way to ensure that mods don't engage in this behavior also.

2) No bans. If Tomash wants to take a leave of absence, I support his decision, but if the person harmed by this doesn't think he should be banned, I think it's a bad idea - partly because of the "symbolic" nature of it. We'd be doing this to make it feel like someone had been punished, which is not a substitute for fixing the problem. Tomash made a mistake- the first time he's done something like this - and moved quickly to repair the damage once he realized it was a mistake.

3) The Discord. Keep it. Have an honest, serious conversation with the people involved in this about what went wrong, why, and how they can move as individuals to stop it happening again. Again, what we need is a culture change. And, preferably, also, not one mod to step in, but for everyone involved to say "Wait, we're rushing this out of emotion. Let's take a step back and let people's heads cool."

No mods, no bans.

There is clearly no consensus on bans, I cannot support any such action.

I do, however, propose that we find resources on recognizing abusive behaviors (especially on the internet, but also abuse and bullying theory in general) and have some requirement that oldbies / pgs / discorders / etc study them. That's been a common thread in the last several messes, I think that increasing our literacy on the matter is a necessary thing.

1. No mods. If we have a problem with people failing to take personal responsibility, explicitly giving all the responsibility to someone else will not fix it.
   
   2. 3-month ban for Tomash (which I don't think needs to be IP-enforced, for the record). I like you, I forgive you, but take a break.
   
   2.5. 3-month Discord silence for everyone involved with going after July. If we can't make everyone take a break from it, I suppose this will do instead.
   
   3. Guys, just make sure you've each learned your lessons here. Think things through. When emotions run high, step back. Don't be enablers. Don't be an echo chamber or a mob. No mods or rules can help with those things.
   
   ~Neshomeh

1) No mods, don't think it will help.
2) I say we ban Tomash for maybe two, three months? Not a long time, but just for a while.
3) In some of the previous threads, someone suggested closing the discord for a while. (I think it was Neshomeh?) I think this might work.
Also, Maslab and Delta Juliette are my choice for new discord mods.

I've gone through and tried to find the most recent votes by everyone who hasn't (yet) posted in this thread. Here's what I've got:

17th

Desdendelle - bans for everyone involved in the Discord discussion.
ninny4370 - no bans.
Sergio Turbo - abstain at this time.
[EvilAI]UBEROverlord - long-term ban for Tomash, some form of 'discipline' for Alleb and Granz, no bans for others.
Akrinor - no bans.
Alleb - no bans.
Aegis - no bans.

18th

PoorCynic - permaban for Tomash, year ban for Alleb, Granz, and Khrssty, 4 month ban for Aegis and Ekyl, no other bans.
SkarmorySilver - no bans.
Granz - no bans.
The Triumvirate - 6 month ban for Tomash, 2-3 month ban for Alleb, Granz, and Khrssty, 4 month ban for Ekyl, no other bans.
Iximaz - 6 month ban for Tomash, no other bans.
Seafarer - 6 month ban for Tomash, no bans for anyone else.
Badger421 - no bans.
Mattman the Comet - 1-6 month ban for Tomash, no other bans.
Neshomeh - 3 month ban for Tomash, no other bans.

19th

Hieronymus Graubart - no bans.

There's pretty clearly no support at this point for banning anyone other than Tomash. That could obviously change (anything's possible), but only four people have even suggested it.

The tallies for Tomash, including in this thread, are:

-Permaban: 2
-6 month ban: 4
-Long-term ban (unspecified): 1
-1-3 month ban: 2
-TOTAL BANS: 9

-No ban: 11

-Explicit abstain: 3

-TOTAL VOTES: 23

There may be some errors; feel free to recalculate when it needs updating.

hS

1) As I think I've made clear, I am completely pro mods. I wish we could all be trusted to use our judgement and get things done, but we quite obviously can't do that. We need mods to officially propose votes, to officially announce verdicts, and to just be proactive about things that cause a lot of dithering otherwise.

2) I vote to ban no one but Tomash, and only to ban him for a month, or not even that.

3) I don't think we should change the Discord. The community feeling of the PPC is a lot stronger because of it. Yes, it causes problems, but no more than the Board does. Things get quite heated here too.

1. I am still debating internally about this one. hS makes some very good points about mods, but I can't help but think they would help immensely. For now, put me down for NO MODS
   
   2. NO BANS.
   
   3. Still thinking, no current ideas.

1. I vote for no mods, of any sort.
   
   2. No bans. I've been on too many boards and involved in too many communities that have had overzealous, almost draconian mods using banhammers like sniper rifles in a Deathmatch game. I don't want to see this community go the same way.
   
   3.I don't know Discord well enough to suggest changes, so I'll leave that to those in the know.

1. I vote no mods, per this post. I will also note here that the Discord, which has moderators, was the centre of both the GlarnBoudin incident and the doxxing one. Moderators are not the solution; the community taking responsibility is the solution.
   
   2. I vote no bans, per this post.
   
   3. I'm still thinking about this one.
   
   hS

I think it would be better to say not just bans in your second point but also any other reprimands that are being handed out as well.

Also in addition to the third point, Discord mods (although that seems to have been all but decided)

July, you are the big sister I never had and I love you dearly. I hope that you will eventually return, even if that's not likely to happen. I will try to keep in touch and I hope that you know that you do have people who care about you here.

Both in a general sympathy sense, that you're leaving, and in the sense that I held onto a grudge for far, far too long, and in indulging it, helped poison the well against you. I'm sure, despite not being in the logs, some of the ugly feeling about you could be traced back to things I've said.

On a more selfish note, I'm sad because I was hoping to rebuild some kind of a friendship, and though I hope you'll be willing to keep talking, it kind of sucks to lose your voice here just as I was hoping to reconnect.

At any rate, I wish you the best of luck in your life going forward.

And July stepped into her private boat and waved goodbye
and sailed back over a year
and in and out of weeks
and through a day
and into the night of her very own room
where she found her supper waiting for her.

And it was still hot.

hS

According to your wish, the story of how Hieronymus the hermit became a part-time knight will never be told.

Fare well.

HG

I was far too passive during the events on the chat, and the fact they disturbed me should have prompted me to act more, not stay away.

I wish you well for the future.

I do not know wether you are going to read this post or not, but in case you are, I want to apologize to you.

Even though I did not post as much as others during the incident, I am still guilty, like every other person present at the time, of not stepping in. Yes, emotions were running high. Still, that does not excuse the fact that I did not take a step back and did not realize what kind of action was being discussed. Instead all I said was that I was "not sure" about posting the picture on the board.

I know how hypocritical it comes off to apologize so late, but I both wanted to take a few step backs and think about what I was going to say, and go through the chat logs so I knew exactly what happened and what was being said, and what I did. Emotions can cloud the memoryjust like they cloud the judgement, and I did not want to make the mistake of letting that be the case this time.

Once again I apologize to you. I can understand your decision to leave, especially after this incident, and I cannot and have no right to try and stop you.

~Akrinor

(I've said a lot of this stuff to July, but I think it needs to be out here)

Outing someone's real name on the Internet without consent like I did in a moment of complete idiocy is wrong in all circumstances, but now it seems that this case was worse than most.

It appears that my belief (stated in another post) that none of us would want July killed isn't (or used to not be) true. That means that my posting in the Discord could have actually had a decent chance of ... f**k. I didn't know about any of the history until yesterday afternoon, but that's no excuse. I f**ked up real bad there, and I wish I could go back in time and slap myself silly.

Now, I have to ask. Did anyone who was participating in chat at the time know about this stuff, especially the death threats? If so, I'm surprised that I didn't get any calls to "DELETE THAT NOW" or similar, either in chat or privately, from someone who knew the full potential consequences of my actions. I assure you, I would've listened.

These are the first words that I mean to direct at you since the incident I've caused, and now so it happens those shall also be the last. I know you hate me, and you have the full right to do so, but for that one final time I would like to get your attention:

I have no excuses for my behaviour, both this one and almost six months ago. I didn't do anything to prevent the mob from rising, I let my emotional attachment overtake me, and for that I will accept any punishment the community should impose onto me. The previous time I acted high-and-mighty, tried to force my way of thinking onto you, and completely ignored your decisions, all while under the delusion of being a friend.

Truth be told, I am still grateful to you for what you did back in 2015 for me. You are honest, direct, and no-nonsense to the absolute maximum, but whether you are a bully or not... that's not for me to say, and I shouldn't build my opinion based on the events I wasn't there for.

I will not repeat my mistake and will not even think about stopping you from leaving. What we did put you in potential danger and as much as I would like for us to part ways with at least neutral relationship, that's unfortunately nothing I can do about anymore.

So, to sum up, if any of this has any worth to you anymore: I am sorry, JulyFlame, for all this messed up stuff I've put you through.

There's no point in trying to make a long post explaining myself because I know nothing I say can ever make up for what I did. It was wrong, it was stupid, and it was horrible of me to say what I did and cause this to happen to you.

Take care.

I'm just looking for a second opinion on flow, humor, and stuff like that. I already have a primary beta.

You can also reply to this post and give me your email if that's easier than PMing me.