Nov 2011 Archive, part a

I've done several mini-missions. That's missions of less than a thousand words where the agents tackle just one problem in an other wise good fic or a short badfic. Miah once wrote a mission where her agents were sent into six badfics to sort them out.

I'd say either works.

I don't quite understand what you mean by "found on a blog where someone other than the original author reviews it".

Well, of course someone other than the original author reviews it. It doesn't count as a review if the author reviews it.

But did you find the badfic through that blog or in that blog? Don't think it really matters. Fanfic is fanfic no matter where it is found. I've missioned at least one story I first found through a blog/that was in a blog (LJ).

MSTed versions count as secondary sources. If it's MSTed it's likely it's sporkable. But it would be best and try to find the original source. Though I believe it is customary among MST'ers to MST the whole story, you should always check if they haven't left anything out to make the MST more compact.

It's a bit short, and not too scary, but I hope it's still good.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/18KlD7XiR3uwFvcDujl1Axv1Yv4pri1klUxa2miTNfcY/edit

And sorry it took so long, I wasn't near a computer at all yesterday.

Ghost's Story

Not quite in the same style as the rest, but then, Nyx isn't your average agent any more.

It's also rather more scary for the agents than for us. :P

hS

I killed two birds with one stone; I actually did something for Halloween, AND I provided backstory for one of my agents. I am awesome.

Except for the whole shameless procrastination thing, and the fact that I frankly suck at writing horror stories, since this is my first shot at it.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bMAZrCXlqqWk9n2I934Rt7d96HD4cs9wIh43yFJlarU/edit

This was fun! (Although mine's kinda long, sorry.)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zwc8RHm2OHnK3D0ZLFtWYhC8dGUQCConxbWgqyeDoPA/edit

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1QvrQyBoHcBehLmZBfZYimc40hgVc2YGJOrbE4cRrRWI

My part is here: http://rc170.wordpress.com/2011/11/01/halloween-co-write/

Boo!

Here's my part. I'm not really sure if it's any good, but well...

http://rmforum.rm.funpic.de/ppc/template.php?src=cowrite.ppc

This is an interesting post, and it does bring up some good points. I am rather oblivious as to when I (even when co-writing) am doing too much, or too little of something, which is why I LOVE Betas.

As for the first point, I can see how lots of blocks of pasted fic can bo both annoying and drag the mission to a crawl. Just recently I had to edit one heavily because I had been using fic bits to help steer where the agents were going, because they were busy with other stuff. a lot of them could have been summarized (and were after some editing).

Having only certain examples of the fic displayed, to show off bad things, and sillyness is a good way of doing it, even if I sometimes like to add in more (Sues and OCs can have really cool dialogue sometimes).

For the second point, (Which Miah already replied to(MIAH! Hi! :D)) I have been having one of those cartoony things where you slip from one extreme to another. I am certainly guilty of having that happen, but I feel that talking about charges can be interesting to the agents themselves. Say a Sue makes up a completely uncanon history, but it honestly sounds kind of cool, if silly. I think it is great grounds for a discussian.

As Miah said, we are trying to balance out our agents doing charges, and the internal plot going on with them. We don't want the missions hum drum experiences and their own problems and issues overshadow it. We are having trouble in that regard a bit, making sure the agents acknowledge the fic and the badness, while having time for their own stuff.

As for the charge lists, yeah, they could be shortened down to the most grievous or annoying/funny ones. I usually have them all typed out, then split it up between a couple of different agents. Having them shorter could be a bit easier to handle.

I'm glad you brought this up. I feel like my stuff has been slacking a bit lately. The copypasta is definitely something I've noticed that that I am sliding toward in the bad habit region. And long charge lists...well, I use to break the charge lists up a lot--the Sue struggles or interrupts, the other agent interrupts, the agent interrupts him or herself, etc. I've been slacking in that, too.

As for the second point of agents that only talk about charges, I've been rather worried lately that *we're getting into problems the other direction. As long as we are reflecting on missions, is there a point where you are not going to want to read the mission because of the plot going on with the agents, and are we getting too close to that point?

I have to admit that I really like writing things with my agents. I enjoy seeing what they are up to, and what is going on in their lives. The agents are really what make me want to read the missions, especially for fandoms that I don't know. The PPC is a fascinating canon all on its own.



(*We being Caddy and me)

A couple of people have said that it would be OOC for their agents not to have very thorough charge lists and to want to read them out as such. That's fine, but it still doesn't mean it all has to end up in a block at the end of the mission. Several reasons:

1. They have partners, who can goad them to speed things up, or interrupt, or otherwise break up blocks of charges into smaller, more manageable bits.

2. There's the Sue/possessed canon/whatever to consider. Is the culprit you're charging really just going to sit still and listen patiently while the agents explain why they've been given a death sentence? Maybe the Sue breaks her restraints, or the wraith possesses one of the agents, or the canon characters attack, or something happens to cut the agents short.

3. Related to the above, there's no reason the meticulous agent can't be thorough in writing, but sum up as they're reading aloud. Best of both worlds, there.

4. Ultimately, it's still up to you, the writer, to make your story fun to read. If your meticulous agent's charge list is bogging down the mission, your readers aren't likely to care very much for how well you're keeping your agent in-character.

My personal rule for writing charge lists is to do it on the fly. If I don't remember a charge while I'm writing the list at the end, it probably wasn't that big a deal, and can go without being mentioned explicitly.

I have one agent who remembers everything and another one who's concerned with getting the Duty right. In the first case, it's pretty easy: remembering everything does not equal saying everything. Only the most important/personally aggravating things get expounded upon.

In the second case, I once wrote an insanely long, multi-paragraph, itemized charge list for him, because he's just anal enough to do it. In the end, though, I axed it and cut it down to one paragraph, because by that point he was just too angry to read something that long. (Plus a dragon might have eaten him if he'd really done it.) I included it as an extra at the end of the mission, though, so if you want to know how bad an overly long charge list can get, just scroll down to the bottom. I will never do this again.

So, to sum up, you should never have to sacrifice storytelling for characterization. As we seem to agree down in the "What makes a good OC?" thread, if the character isn't serving the story, something is probably wrong.

~Neshomeh

I'm probably guilty on your third point. Arthur Briggs is former-military, and he would be very precise when charging. Five sentences and open fire isn't his style. And since he's training Lynn Gillies, she's going to follow that pattern, at least to start.

Personally, I think it's more important to be detailed on canon violations. "Multiple cases of bad spelling" is perfectly fine as a charge; but in my opinion "Completely trashing the canon" is too vague/general.

However, I was planning to do something a little different for my next mission (once I pick a target) -- I'll give a shorter charge list a try and see how it works.

As someone who is still writing out her first mission, I should probably keep some of that in mind...

I don't think all these are recent things. At least not the first point. I remember as far back as 2007 someone being told not to copy-paste large chunks of badfic. I guess that's one of those things that requires "getting the hang of". It takes some learning before you know exactly what the point is you wish to make.

A while back I did some calculations of how much I directly quote from badfic and how many words I spend describing/paraphrasing what's going on. I don't have the numbers handy, but I believe quotes were usually less than 5% of the original fic. If more information from the fic was needed I would go with paraphrasing. Sometimes, for quick summary, I'd have one of the agents do a short recap. This does not amount to "'Look! Holy smokes, batman, X, Y, Z happened!' ". Far from it. My agents have a sense of humour (not saying that Aster's don't, just saying they weren't using it when they did the boring recap.); when they recap, they make fun of the X, Y and Z in their choice of words.

I'm probably guilty of the other two in some respects.

I do write the long charge lists in the end, because my agents are meticulous like that. It would be out of character for them not to charge everything and mention why it is a charge. That said, I don't charge for every individual spelling error. Spelling, grammar and punctuation issues is one charge on the list. The charge of OOC behaviour is, however, substantiated.

Besides, long charge lists give the Sue the opportunity to argue her point, which is a fun part of writing the climax.

Leaving the point of agents only talking about charges. Well, my agents have been together for so long, they've run out of things to say to each other that are not mission related. That leaves talking about the merits of a fic and struggling their way through it.

Less with the third point than the first two, but with everything in general. I can't say I've read enough missions recently to say how often these problems prop up, but none of them are things I'd want to see while reading.

Copy/paste: If I wanted to read the badfic, I would read the badfic. I am here to see your agents being put through the ringer by temporal distortions, shifting tenses, ambiguous pronouns, and whatever else you can come up with.

Agents who become walking charge lists: The agents should not lose their character when they step through a portal. We want to see them try to hold it together while bad things go on around them. Also, we have the most fun in a mission when the agents are being directly affected by the badfic. There has been a shift, of late, toward agents becoming completely outside observers. I once read a mission where the agents read the fic and talked about the charges in their RC before going into the fic at just the right moment to kill the Sue. This is where the shift is leading and it is not an interesting place.

Overly long charge lists: I have a couple of notes on this one. I believe this is a symptom of two different diseases. 1) Thinking you have to spork the entire 700 chapter badfic. 2) Thinking you have to charge for everything.

To issue number one, I would say, you only have to spork a badfic as far as a major break in canon. If that happens too early, then keep going until you reach a good point to exterminate/exorcise the problem.

For issue number two, just try to keep it to only the really egregious charges. I don't really want to hear about every single time the author makes a minor spelling mistake, if the whole point of the mission is that Severus Snape and James Potter have become lovers and Potter is pregnant.

So, PoorCynic, you are not alone in this. I have been saying the same things to Neshomeh for a while. Thanks for bringing it up.

I totally agree with you on these points, but for the sake of discussion... let me expound on copypasta badfic excerpts. I find copypasta'd badfic is most powerful in two situations:

1) setting the tone of the badfic, showing people exactly what they're dealing with. Some things do need context.

2) Short, snappy excerpts to punctuate a moment of supreme badness. Sometimes, the phrasing speaks for itself.

On one hand, I don't really like agents paraphrasing a badfic. I've tried it, and it becomes 'Look! Holy smokes, batman, X, Y, Z happened!'

But when there's too MUCH badfic copypasta, the mission becomes a MST.

Quick Solution: Show, don't tell. Spelling errors don't have to be shown in block quotation form. Besides, showing the effects of badfic is often funnier (bring on that slapstick!) than being shown the badfic unless the writing in that particular excerpt is SO BAD it's hilarious. If not, then badfic really isn't that funny. It's just sad. I actually like to use that pathetic feeling to set the tone at the beginning.

Less Quick Solution: My opinion is that copypasta should bear in mind the mission's pacing. Badfic is arduous to read. Unless it's something SO DUMB that even if it's horrid, the reader can't stop reading, don't include it unless you're setting the scene. Include descriptions of the Sue, excerpts that show her mindset, and other things like that in the rising action.

But closer to the climax, multi-paragraph blobs should be gone, leaving only periodic BLAM badness moments.

The climax of the badness should either have the ONE QUOTATION that the agents cannot forgive, or it shouldn't be copypasta at all, but demonstrated. We speed up reading the more exciting the mission gets, and bogging it down there is sort of bad.

So yeah. Story structure, copypasta, and missions. Blah blah blah, look at Aster's mouth go. This isn't instructional, or me telling others how to write missions. It's just what I think and what I try to do.

Can you give some examples of how you think it should be done please? How much of the badfic should be included in the mission so it isn't too much?

to see if the missing fics are hosted elsewhere. Be a shame to lose potential sporking material, after all.

That's the fun thing about wikis: if you find an issue on a page, you can fix it yourself.

Or you could just leave it be and wait for someone to delete the fics by default because they have been on the Unclaimed list for too long.

Even to remove dead links. You're welcome to do it yourself. :)

(The wiki will not attack you, devour you, sue you, attempt to defraud you, repossess your home, or challenge you to an honor duel. If it does any of these things, you are welcome to file a complaint with Neshomeh, who according to this hat I found gets to deal with those this week and every week that complaints occur. I handle complaints on the days there are no complaints.)

Brother over shoulder and no time to look up, but do we have a "-Bringing Russia of Hetalia into close contact with the SO is not a good idea" already?

I will not portal Gollum to Marlin's anemone.

I will NOT make Divine Comedy jokes around Badtail.

1. I will not tickle a sleeping dragon.
   - Nor would I encourage the recruits to tickle said sleeping dragon.
   1339. I will not blurt out "I'm Samus!" whenever I push someone from behind.

• Neuralizers are not toys.
  - Under no circumstances am I allowed to keep a Fat Man as loot.
  - A Death Note is right out
  - (Addition to 1327) Hellsing is doubly so.
  - I must stop shouting "Just who the hell do you think I am!?" out of canon.
  - Nobody cares.
  - Especially not the Flowers.
  - Neuralizers are not toys.

• I will not throw Luxury at Agent Fix. That will not end well.
  - I am not allowed to show the Carver a knife, throw it in the other direction and tell her to 'go fetch'.
  - I will not show badfic to Gaius.
  - Pixel ponies are not to be tormented.

1338 (?): 1 W1LL NOT WR1T3 4NY HOM3STUCK M1SS1ONS 1N T3R3Z1S TYP1NG QU1RK
- NoR wIlL i WrItE tHeM iN GaMzEe'S.
- Or 2ollux's becau2e that'2 al2o two annoyiing two u2e
- Or eeeeeeeeven like Vr8ska
- I will not write any missions in ANY sort of typing quirk.

1. I will not take a magic Xbox/PS3/Wii/whatever-other-consoles-that-exist as loot.
   1332. I will not drink ryncol.

1. I will not sing to Mini-Darkspawn.
   - I will not start a mini-blight.
   1333. I am not allowed to discuss Chris Metzen with agents from Azeroth
   1334. I am not allowed to give interns a 10 foot pole, a copy of Dungeons and Dragons 1st edition The Temple of Elemental Evil and let them get ideas.
   - 'checking for traps' does not include people, either.
   1335. You are not allowed to put mini thermal detonators in DoSAT's gadgets. We have an image to maintain.
   1336. Lyrium is not allowed in the Harry Potter universe.
   1337. [0un73r57r1|

1. I will never ever give Agent Kirill a mana-producing trinket. This will not end good.

...and then I remembered that I already read that. :|

Anyways, I liked it. Poor Thomas and Orken. And O'Neil. He's so silleh.

Awesome! You guys did a great job of having your agents interact and work together. It was also Cool and Different to see some agents get pulled to the Glittery Side for a while, although it might have been even more fun if that had lasted longer, and some more repercussions had been seen.

Also, there's a spot when the agents enter the airport where a note to add something was left in. :)

A lot of Sues just don't have enough personality to even comprehend the concept of an assassination. For those, you can just show them being mildly surprised, if anything.

Using a quote from the fic or the author's note is another favorite, especially if the quote has bad grammar or spelling.

If the Sue has enough of a personality to coherently plead her case, you may have to consider recruiting her--the presence of a personality means she can probably be rehabilitated. You guys ever read those fics where the Sue really isn't that egregious, but the canon disruption is huge? In those cases, it seems like the Sue isn't the source of the problem, but just happens to be located at the epicenter of it. I see those as potential recruits.

Well, not ALL Sues are dead eyed dolls that would listen to their charges without a peep. If you've ever seen footage (perhaps on the news, or in a release of a court case) of somebody being arrested, many people certainly do not heed 'you have the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be used in a court of law.'

As for writing them, one can get the idea of a Sue's character just by going through the mission. Sues usually have two kinds of goals: the goal they claim to have, and the end goal their actions actually are striving for. A Sue might claim to want to save the world, but if the narrative works only to drop her into into 's arms... then it's clear what the Sue actually exists for.

If you really want to write any length of dialogue or action with them, you kind of have two options.

1) Write the sue 'unmasked', showing her true colors, and desperately grasping what she really wants. She may throw fits, freak out about being separated from her love interest, go supernova and become a great urple sparkling horror in a desperate attempt to crush agents... anything you want, really. Just as long as it's not offensive and fits within the bounds of satire.

2) is to sort of pick up where the author left off and make the Sue act as she did in the fic. Emulating the style of a Sue is hard but I've done it before in parody works to... disturbing success.

I had to stop and continue reading later. I was laughing to hard and afraid my roommates would ask questions.

This is so freaking funny.

/Why/? And why doesn't it stop there?

...But at least there was lube, I guess. Small consolation.

I've read those stories, I never thought anyone would try to actually MST them! You did a good job though.

The mental images. Help.

That stuff's... wow. *twitch*

It may be a bit early for this one, the author's only posted one chapter. OTOH, her main character is a female Navy SEAL, and most of that posted chapter is (I assume) song lyrics.

Bittersweet
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7514773/1/Bittersweet
"U.S Navy SEAL Alexandra Rouverain has everything she wanted: close friends and a home. But what happens if she falls into a completely different world? Not a Mary-Sue, or at least, not your typical. This is my first story, so please check it out!"

I need all the God-Sues you've got. Big ones, bigger ones, the works.

Yeah, that about sums what a Fellowship of Ten is. De-story, meaning that the real story (and simbolism) has been completely removed from it.

We should make it a PPC-used verb.

Oh, and Swat Kats. Definitely want to do a SK one.

Hahahahaha. Here. Take these:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4553254/1/Shes_Like_The_Wind
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4553101/1/Total_Eclipse_of_the_Heart

Have fun sorting out that mess. Problems I've counted: Terrbile formatting, making Dark Elves/Night Ones a separate race that is immortal and lives in a tree city roughly where Tir Tairngire should be, making the main character a Night One, but not revealing it until the second story, giving a mage cybernetic implants, and last but certainly not least, introducing daikaiju. Not like, Godzilla movies, but actual giant monsters. In what I think is downtown Seattle.

Oh, right. And hovercycles. There are those, too.

While it's true there might not have been any sporked yet, it's known here at the PPC. It's even got its own OFU, called the IAHF (International Academy of Hetalia Fanfiction).

Hi Florida!

I know there are Hetalia fans in the PPC. There are some Hetalia badfics on the Claimed Badfic page of the wiki, so sporking may be on its way.

Badfic threads don't need to be sorted by continuum -- if there's a thread on the first page of the board, throw your list on it.

I got a little distracted in the last couple of pages before they decided to charge the Stus, but it was more because I don't know any of these fandoms. I was kind of getting worn out with the canon, while the agents were keeping my interest.

It is interesting how things kind of come in groups isn't it? I found a Lights Shawn and now there is a Light, which is very cool, because Lights Shawn can have a friend.

I loved how Anneli was the Innocents, and Emmeline's choice at the end was powerful.

Alex in particular was an annoying Stu, but I think that the thing that would have driven me up the wall the most about the fic was the baby talk! I don't even let my three year old use grammar as terrible as that dialogue! Really if a kid who is barely three can master saying, "He is..." "I am..." and "They are..." Then surely someone old enough to type (and spell pretty decently while doing it) is capable of mastering it.

Anyway! Well killed, Herr! I look forward to the next installment.

It's no secret that I'm a fan of long missions. And this was really good, with good pacing and all. I liked how the stupid just kept coming and coming.
And your agents are funny and wellwritten together.

'Twas a good mission, Herr Doktor. I applaud your stamina.

Loved the mission. On a side note, I saw a typo:

“Oh,” said Cindy, looking at the Stu as the scene began to form around them. “So it would be like a…” The witch grimaced. “No, that’s a really bad analogy.”

“What, like a house-elf being invited to Hogwarts?” asked Cindy.

The witch cringed, nodding. “Yes, that was the one,” she admitted, her gaze turning away from Xanthus. “I really shouldn’t have used that. House elves aren’t very fortunate in my continuum.”

Unless Cindy normally talks to herself...

On another note, if you don't mind, I'd rather like that omni-tool for my agents. Grace will wreak plenty of havoc with that.

It was really pretty long, but overall I thought it was great. Keep it up!

I hereby hand you your very own personal Boxed Dwarf Star. Do be careful, tis very heavy, there's a good chap. So, Florida, would you happen to have ever heard of a Canon under the title of Cadfael? Don't worry, I'm not really asking you in particular, I'm just sort of searching for someone who knows it...

I'm sorry, I'm a little Odd. Most of us are, here. Leave your sanity by the door, there's a dear...

Rabid Hetalia fan freaked out at the name, but NO MATTER! Welcome to the Board! Please deposit your sanity in the provided receptacle. *indicates bucket marked "Warg Fodder"* You shan't need it here.

Hello and welcome! Have a Holy Hand Grenade (Warning: Do not use near rabbits.)

Welcome, new person. Also, have a cookie.

Welcome to the Board! Here, have some chocolates, and enjoy your stay! So, what fandoms do you follow?

Hi, have some fudge!

*pokes the newbie* Oooohhh! Fun!

Ahem...

Welcome, fellow badfic hunter. So, of out curiosity, how did you find us?

Welcome aboard! Have a case of possibly-radioactive energy drinks! Twice the kick of a normal energy drink, and only a 33.3333333% chance to give you tongue cancer!

Greetings, new friend! Have a mystical sword that can only be wielded by the first person to touch it! . . . Oops. Sorry . . .

BTW, what are your fandoms?

Welcome to the Board. Here's a crate of Bleepka and your two cents.

Have an Official Hipster Scarf as a welcome present! (You've probably never heard of it)

Hello there, Florida! Pleased to meet you!
Here, have a "Got SPaG?" bumper sticker.

I loved how excited Thomas parents were that he was coming out. He had me convinced that he wasn't. I thought he was upset at lying over the job just like Orken. I like their interactions. They are one of my favorite pairs.

I really enjoyed this. Like LunarHuntress says, it's got a nice balance of silly and serious, and it's some great characterization for the guys, seeing them outside the usual PPC environment and talking about non-PPC things (even if some of those things are lies). The "Charleston Chews" bit is great. ^_^

I'm now trying to imagine Ilraen and Nume having a normal day on World One Earth. It... doesn't work. {X D Kudos to Thomas and Orken for doing as well as they did.

Also, I would like to pass on a hug for Thomas.

~Neshomeh

I really like Thomas and Orken. Their interactions are always so fun. Especially in this, where the beginning was just a funny story of agents bickering and being mistaken for gay, but the ending was really rather sweet. Well done.

...because even if may or may not be historical bull excrements, Arcadians are canon in 300.

Also, French-Canadians in ancient Greece are just too awesome. :D

I'd give it a small amount of leeway, at least, owing to Gerard Butler's heavily-accented pronunciation of "Arcadian." It's extremely easy to mishear; I had to double-check it myself just to make sure I'd heard him right.

Sparta was actually the main city of Laconia, or Lacedaemonia. Laconia was a city state in ancient Greece on the Peloponnese (that nobbly large island part of greece), to the south-east. With its military might, it was the head of the Pelopnnesian League.

Arcadia was another province in on the Peloponnese, and a member (whether it liked it or not) of the Pelopnnesian League. It was located in the highlands, in the center of the Peloponnese.

Achaea was the strip directly to the north of Arcadia, also a part of the Pelopnnesian League. It is still not Laconia/Sparta.

I have no idea if the Spartans were called 'Arcadians' or Achaeans in the film, but even if they were, calling them as such is still incorrect. There were no Arcadians or Achaeans at Thermopolae: There were only Spartans, Thespians, and Thebans.

Arcadians in the film, Thespians in the comics.

*kazoo*

Well. Fandoms never cease to amaze me. The sheer ridiculousness is astounding.

Unless anyone else wants it, I'm hereby claiming the second one to spork.

I think the HP/MLP is just silly and riddled with plotholes, but the Firenze one? Absolute proof that some fans find ANYTHING good.

Charge for bad biology. Horses' genitalia are NOT right below their chests.

I don't know about the second one, but the first one? Oh, I can see sporkable material in there. Seriously, can an author work any harder to remove any charm from the fic with fourth-wall breaking humor that's obnoxious, painfully unfunny, and that REALLY messes up the story's pacing? Also, it has a potential SI Sue in there, so... Yeah.

Because I haven't commented yet. Very good job-this thing NEEDED to be sporked.

Jeez, I can't believe I haven't gotten to commenting on this yet!

Well, great job as always. I'm not as familiar with Sanctuary as you are, but I could see why this fic was so bad. So keep up the good work as usual! :D

Even if I was a beta, I still wanted to read it over again. Sanctuary is fun to read about, and yeah, you did do a good job on making people who don't know the canon understand why the charges are bad.

I think I've only ever heard about Sanctuary, because of your missions in the continuum, but you did a really good job making clear why the charges are bad, to people like me, who know jack about the canon.

It worked really well. And I'll be looking forward to seeing more of your agents.

SPOILERS FOR THE MISSION AHEAD

It's always nice to see another PPCer branching out into video game missions. You did a very nice job of deconstructing this particular badfic, which was definitely deserving of the descriptor 'bad.' The agents you've created have some good bits of back-and-forth, and could definitely be very interesting with some character development.

That being said, I have several major qualms about this story. The agents being able to see the in-game HUD, while amusing at first glance, led to my becoming a little confused the more I thought about it. The mission seems to imply, though Sylvia's nonchalance, that she's accustomed to the presence of the HUD due to being a native of the Falloutverse. Are you saying that everyone in the Falloutverse has their own HUD? It can't be an artifact of the Pipboy, as Natasha isn't wearing one. Yeah, I know that I should always keep the MST3K Mantra in the back of my mind, but this particular instance seemed a bit too logic-bending.

Then there was the ending. It was nice seeing the issues surrounding trying to neuralyze canonical characters who wear sunglasses all the time (not to mention fairly entertaining,) but the whole sequence peters out fairly undramatically. I hate to quote TV Tropes, but you basically just dropped a bridge on the Stu. He's supposed to be this big tough badass, and yet Sylvia "just shot at the Stu until he died" offscreen? I'm sorry, but that feels a bit like a cop-out to me.

Finally, there are some SPaG issues here and there: multiple exclamation points (and, at one point, multiple interrobangs) in your agents dialogue, a few miscapitalized words, some missing punctuation marks, and a couple of run-on sentences.

You've got a lot of promise with both your writing and your agents. However, it's going to take a lot more work. I look forward to your future projects with interest.

I've been lurking on the boards for a while-- real life and a Game of Thrones RP site have been eating my time >_> Even though I don't know much about Fallout-- well done! A pleasant read. :)

You took good advantage of some of the badfic's funny lines. I really enjoyed your interpretation of "everything about him screamed." I also like how you brought up the game's mechanics early on, and returned to them later in the finale.

I did see quite a few typos in here, though. In particular, there were a few places where you used "to" instead of "too." Also, several times you used "cannon" instead of "canon." I would suggest reading through this again carefully with an eye for spelling.

...don't forget to update the Wiki with this stuff!

And for future reference, we usually post minis we find in the topic we use to post the mission.

This mission was quite a bit of fun, particularly when it got to the climax. Here's me saying that I can't wait for the next little excursion you take into badfic. :D

Even though I don't know Fallout, this was really fun to read, and I liked the climax. However, there were a few typos:

while watching the Stu and the cannons turn in for the night.

We could just neutralize them and send them back to their base.”

[Shouldn't that be "neuralize"]

and there was a flash as the Neuralyzer was activated.

Other than that, the mission was awesome. Keep up the good work!

New fallout people! Huzzah!

Looking forward to more missions, SS.

It's a good fic. But it IS a tad bloody. I CAN see Six becoming an Evo, and fighting Rex.

You kept everyone reasonably in character, so good job there

All in all, I give it a 9 out of 10. Good job!

I realize a lot of the Sue/Stu pages are stubs, and if those don't get expanded on by the writers who made those pages, then I guess I wouldn't have a problem with deleting them.

What I would have a problem with is deleting a Sue page that does contain detailed and entertaining information, but does not fit the community's definition of "notability or prominence."

Most especially of all, I would hate to have our users feel like they aren't allowed to write interesting, detailed Sue pages in the future only because that Sue is not seen as notable or prominent by our community. I am not at all comfortable with creating and enforcing some rule about what missions contain a villain that meets some acceptable definition of "important."

I feel like I'm not explaining myself well. What I'm trying to get across is that it wouldn't be fair to tell PPCers that some of their mission targets don't meet the proper badness level to warrant a page. If someone wants to make a page for each of their Sues/wraiths/whatever, and they can create an interesting and fun-to-read article as a result, I say more power to them. I hope I'm making sense.

If we could put problematic articles into that category, then anybody who had some time could go over them and give them a bit of polishing.

You could have a space in the tag for the reason it needed revision; and then whoever went over it properly could remove the tag when the article got straightened out.

It would also let people who just incidentally noticed problems with an article tag it for other people to fix, if they didn't have time to do it themselves.

I sincerely doubt that I'll have anything new to add to this conversation, but I guess I should still pitch in a little something. I'll try to do this point by point.

REGARDING THE TONE OF THE WIKI
As Chatvert said, ‘The issue with the tone of the wiki might be due to the common misperception that snark/humor is equivalent to flat-out being mean.” The wiki has a lot of snark. I think that the nastiest of it – you know, any bits where we come off as just being cruel – could be cleaned up in the interest of being diplomatic.

Of course, you have to remember that the missions have a lot of snark too. Look at the Original Series again; it has quite a few harshly humorous moments. We are a very sarcastic bunch of folks.

I don’t think there’s any way we’re going to avoid coming off as being elitist writing snobs to someone somewhere. This is the internet we’re talking about. Haters gonna hate, and trying to please them is just going to end up being a waste of everyone’s time. All you can do is shrug your shoulders and say “I’m sorry you feel that way.”

REGARDING BADFIC AUTHOR PAGES
Eh… we probably don’t need these. I’d delete ‘em.

REGARDING SLAIN SUES AND STUS
I would keep some of the slain Sue/Stu pages, but only the truly notable ones. The PPC’s most prominent rogues, if you will. Sues and Stus that really stood out for one reason or another. Of course, once you get away from famous ones like Celebrian or Enoby, the problem of what defines a Sue/Stu as being ‘notable’ arises.

Personal example: I have made one Slain Stu page myself, which was for the Sandwich!Stu. I felt that he fit the definition of ‘notable,’ what with being an animate human-sized blue plate special. The others my agents have encountered were fairly typical in their construction, so I didn’t feel they merited pages.

Some other examples of being ‘notable’ (from this Boarder’s POV): being unintentionally hilarious above and beyond the norm, threatening the stability/existence of an entire continuum, or killing an agent during the mission.

REGARDING REDLINKS, STUBS, AND UNEEDED PAGES
I think the wiki has a few pages that can be excised outright (do we really need a page on Cornelius Fudge?). Redlinks should be de-linked and pages with redundant information should be merged. Not really that much else to add. We don't need to cover everything; just the stuff that is directly connected to the PPC.

REGARDING THIS DISCUSSION
Seriously, guys and gals. It’s a just a wiki. Take a deep breath and relax.

Since a lot of people are referencing this FAQ, there are a couple of things I have to say and suggest.

As I understand it, some wiki contributors are making covert insults at the Suethors via the wiki, and this FAQ may be in danger of contributing to the problem. I will freely admit that in the PPC FAQ, there is a satirical and condescending tone in some of the answers to the questions and complaints. However, I don't think that this is necessarily uncalled-for.

The FAQ: For Other People is somewhat different from other articles in that it is reactive, not proactive. It's not going out of its way to offend badfic writers. Instead, it is a response to badficcers asking the same questions and/or making these same complaints repeatedly. Thus, it operates on the assumption that the people reading the FAQ are the ones posing the questions/complaints, which are themselves much harsher than any of the answers it gives.

This being the case, perhaps a disclaimer would be in order, to the effect of:

CAUTION: This FAQ assumes that you are a fanwriter who has launched one of the following questions and/or complaints. If you read through the questions and none of them apply to you, you may be looking for a different FAQ. [Insert links here]

To further warn people, we could also rename it to "Frequently Addressed Complaints."

If you have further suggestions, I would be happy to hear them. In order for them not to be lost among the other sub-discussions on this topic, I suggest that suggestions for improving the FAQ: For other people should take place on the FAQ's "talk" page here.

Cheers,

Araeph

Another vote for not getting rid of the "Slain Sues and Stus" pages. I like them - they're fun, and I know I've discovered a bunch of interesting missions from browsing these pages, and it can be good reference. On the other hand, I agree that not every Sue/Stu needs their own page - only especially egregious, unique, or interesting ones - but I don't think we should get rid of them completely.

As for badfic authors, I didn't even realize we had pages for them, other than - again - particularly egregious, unique, or interesting ones. Cassandra Claire and Squirrelking, for example, are useful and, I think, important pages. These are people that are big enough names with an important enough history that they really are part of fandom at large, and thus significant to us. Other pages, though, like "Sparacus" and "The ender of lives," don't contribute much of anything to the wiki. Those no one would miss. But adding more "badfic authors" pages, if done at all, should only be done with extreme discretion, and only if it would actually contribute usefully to the general store of knowledge.

Not gonna jump in on the wiki, because there are walls o' text like whoa, but I'd like to say that I agree with getting rid of the Slain Sues page. Honestly, they sort of come off as gloating, and it's always annoying when I click what I think is going to be an actual PPC character, only to get a Sue.

Also, I can smell drama brewing from here (and see some of it forming already), and I'm going to go on record now as saying that if any of it leaks into my channel I will start kicking and won't stop until either the drama is gone or everyone but me is. PPC2 was created to be a no-drama-zone, and while that's not always been successful, I'd appreciate it if it stayed as drama-free as possible.

I believe that merging pages to get rid of unnecessary stubs is a good idea. As Nesh said, narrowing the content does improve the quality of the wiki. It is like distillation. You get rid of the stuff you don't need and that leaves you with the stuff you do need. As a lover of fine spirits, I can tell you that it does make for a better product in the end.

I am all for eliminating red links. If you can't be bothered to write a missing article, then don't make a link to it. If you just need a break of a day or two before making a new article then, by all means, link away. Just make sure you do come back and write that article or remove the link. Either way.

The offending bit of the Fandom article has been fixed. I am willing to help fix other problems of that nature (after November) if someone will point them out to me.

I will agree that the Badfic Authors page needs to go. 'Nough said.

My stance on the Slain Sues and Stus page is a bit more complicated. I think that we need to get rid of a fair number of the Sue and Stu pages that are on there, because they are pretty much all the same thing. What I would keep are Sues and Stus that are unique, memorable, or had a major impact. Celebrian would stay (because of her legendary status), as would Alumia (because she required the PPC to exorcise an entire planet) and some others.

I do not think that getting rid of these Sue and Stu pages is denying our history, as some of you have said. The missions are still on the Complete List of PPC Fiction. If you want to know about a Sue, I would suggest reading a mission. Missions have all of the information of the article, plus witty banter and a story. Besides, we have lots missions in other things, as well. You are missing out on a world of wacky hijinks if you only look on the Slain Sues and Stus page. The CLoPPCF should be the go to spot for that sort of thing, in my opinion.

As I was writing this, it was brought to my attention that some of the Sue and Stu pages don't even have any links in them at all (looking through just the A's, B's, and C's, I get more than 1 in 5 being linkless). So there is no chance of using those pages to find a mission. You would need to go to the CLoPPCF (or somewhere else) anyway.

Firstly, yeah. Some of the wiki is starting to feel a bit snobby. This is Not Good.

On the matter of what the Wiki should contain: Bytes are cheap. I don't think that we should be removing every article that isn't directly related to the PPC just because it isn't directly related to the PPC. The PPC is part of fandom - other parts of fandom appearing on our Wiki is not Inherently Bad.

On the other hand, I am not going to go to the PPC Wiki to find in-depth analysis of the meta-religion in The Wind in the Willows. The hypothetical 'you' are welcome to write it, but it's not going to get much attention.

It can be a bit hard to find things on the Wiki - this I acknowledge fully. However, this is a problem that the big Wikipedia handles rather well. (I can get from, say, President Gerald R. Ford to Battlestar Galactica (the spaceship) in a half-dozen clicks.) Props are due at this point to Aster, who has been doing a lot of fairly thankless work towards cleaning things up, connecting them, etc.

There is precisely one type of article that I believe should not, under any circumstance, appear on the Wiki: Articles concerning PPC canon that has not yet been posted. Agents who have not yet made appearances, technology that has not yet been used, etc. This is writing the headlines before launching the product- the Wiki is here to make PPC Canon easier to find, not to be the authoritative source thereof.

As far as badfic-author pages go, I think we need to be very, very careful. Is it inherently wrong to have a page saying "so-and-so wrote fics X, Y, and Z"? I don't think so. But it's very, very easy to go from there into author-bashing, which is inherently wrong.

I haven't bothered to read the various pages mentioned as needing revision (yay for work), but guess what? It's a wiki! There's an edit button!

Concerning redlinks and/or stubs: If a page has been redlinked for multiple years, or a stub hasn't been touched in that long, it's pretty obvious that nobody cares about the material enough to write a page. I'd be inclined to be careful about deleting agent stubs, especially for old main-character Agents, but if a redlink has been redlinked for multiple years, I really have no problem with it getting removed.

tl;dr: It's a wiki. It's meant to be a work in progess. Some stuff should definitely be re-worked, other stuff should be allowed to slide into deletion. I really don't see why this needs to be a Serious Issue.

...except another vote for keeping the Sue and Stu pages. As various people said, they're fun to read. And there are plenty of missions I would never have found if it weren't for those pages.

I'm also in favor of at least keeping the Cassandra Claire page in some form.

So it's come to the board. Okay, let's get started.

Honestly, I wasn't even aware that there was a badfic authors page until it was brought up on the Wiki.

Honestly, I think the Badfic Authors page itself, as well as the pages it links to, are all very poorly done as it is. I'd understand why you'd have a badfic author page and links to those kinds of pages if you had more infamous people like ComixNix or Peter Chimaera whose badfics are inseparable from the authors who wrote them, but the way it is now just doesn't work. I'd be game for voting it out completely on the principle that it (and all the pages on it) are all more or less very poorly done. The fact that it goes against the mission of the PPC is another motivation, and I'd even go so far as to say that the fact that we haven't got very many pages for badfic authors is also another reason why we're better off without it.

However, I don't think it's a good idea to get rid of the Slain Mary Sues page. At the least, I agree with the sentiment that the page should be renamed "Slain Sues and Stus" or something along those lines, but those pages in my opinion are some of my favorite pages on the whole wiki. It's fun reading about Sues we've slain in the past, and to take it away is possibly denying our past, as was mentioned by Lee. So I say we keep the Slain Sues pages on that.

As for the whole thing about the "Mary Sue" page itself... My suggestion is actually something I'm surprised nobody's thought of yet. I propose that we take out the page for "Gary Stu", and copy/paste that article's most relevant information onto the "Mary Sue" page. That I think reinforces the fact that a Gary Stu is really only a part of the concept that is the Mary Sue.

Well, those are my thoughts on the key issues here. Take it away, guys.

I have noticed a problem of - not quite snobbiness per se but more disdain - rearing its ugly head on the wiki. Definitely agree with the suggestion to remove the Badfic Authors page. I mean, c'mon...we've likely all written badfic in our early days, myself most definitely included; would we like being personally pilloried for eternity on the interweb because we didn't know how to write when we were twelve?

The issue with the tone of the wiki might be due to the common misperception that snark/humor is equivalent to flat-out being mean (there is a thin line between the two and it is not trod upon lightly). Given the earlier example stated on the talk page - "This is what creators think the vast majority of fanon looks like sometimes. And they are absolutely right." - really denigrates the good portions of fandom/fanon. As an MLP: FiM fan, a lot of some really great stories are entirely predicated on well-done, non-intrusive fanon. (Then again, fanon/fandom quality may have much to do with the average age of those active in the creative portion of the fandom. Many bronies active on the creative end are college-age or older. A:tlA and Harry Potter, for example, seem to have a lot of tween/early-teen fans who quite honestly don't know what they're doing writing fic.)

I hate to say it, but even though our "job" is to accentuate the negative in fandom, we really look like a bunch of catty bitches when we don't make note of the positive as well. Worse, we look like hypocrites, since we're essentially writing fanfic ourselves. Or even "fan"-fic of fanfic.

Granted, if an author finds out we eviscerated their fic, they will understandably be sad and hurt. But if we alter the tone of the wiki to be a little more positive and welcoming, while maintaining the good-natured humor that is a PPC trademark, maybe we'll get one communicating with us, and honestly looking for feedback. The way it is right now will likely just turn people off.

Fandom is great. Fandom, as a whole, is awesome. We're all parts of fandoms. So why disdain those who partake in what we purport to love - even if they are just plain bad at it? Love the sinner, hate the sin, people. Or at least tolerate the sinner.

Soapbox hereby dismounted.