Aug 2011 Archive, part c

*sniff* Thanks, everyone. You guys made my day. *hugs back*

I mean... Wow... Just wow.

I do NOT want to know what happens to people who do that kind of thing. It's just... God...

Didn't open it myself... but if Boarders want to hide from it, sure it's bad.

and comes to join you in the corner.

I'm always happy to give out hugs, no matter what the cause. ^^

Not to worry! Things will look better in the morning.

I don't readily give these out, what with my being a shriveled cynical husk of an individual, but they are required every once in a while. This is one of those whiles.

Also, a whisk? Yeesh! I'm not sobbing, but I am wincing.

Thread space on the board is at a premium, so you should think twice before starting a new thread on the board, particularly if the subject is just a passing thought. Such conversations are probably best done on the IRC rather than the board.

I was wondering where you were. :) Take care, and hope to see you back eventually.

It's true. Most of the time to catch some awful writing, you just need to hear it read aloud :P

Good job with Pinkie Pie's dialogue at the end (I don't actually watch Friendship is Magic, but I've seen enough bits to know you got that spot on). I also like that you preceded a mission in the Saw continuum with a character making choices in a video game.

I could have done with fewer chunks of the badfic, though. I know you needed to show the terrible punctuation, and why the word cyclone was formed, but that's established fine with the first few paragraphs quoted. After that, it just gets obnoxious having to read those huge paragraphs of text throughout the mission.

Nice, I can't say I am a fan of either fandom, but I do know a lot about both. Know is different from like. Totally. >.>

Saw crossovers, man, that stuff be wack. Especially MLP. Good job on this though. Silly crossovers are fun. Well, the lack of punctuation was annoying. Word Cyclones. Awesome stuff.

Good work! What a truly bad fic, both the idea and the execution (pun intended). I had to shake my head at how the author used almost no punctuation, but then spilled a bunch on three ellipses.

Also, please let us know what Florestan decides to do in Dragon Age. The quest was the first really difficult decision I had to make the first time I played the game and I was just as uncertain as him. ^^

A crossover between My Little Pony... and Saw.

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THIS PERSON?!?

...Sorry, my brain fused for a moment there.

I don't really //get// the Saw franchise, it's just a psychopath killing people in overly elaborate ways... though maybe that's my disdain for horror movies talking.

And why bring My Little Pony in?! The two have NOTHING IN COMMON!

*SIGH* I'll never understand the so-called "logic" of badfic writers...

Saw. And MLP. Saw and MLP. Saw. And. MLP.

WHO THE F/K THOUGHT THIS WAS A GOOD IDEA?

God, this fic was horrible. Good job sporking it, it's a good solid mission.

*shudders and pats HerrWozzeck on the back*

Since I was able to read the text, I think you are able to post again.

but Midori Aoi's story started in June 2010, yours in March 2011. At a first glance, since she started nine months before you, you have to come with a little more substantial evidence than "fic with similar idea" before you start accusing her of plagiarism.

At the moment it looks more like you are plagiarizing her. (Which I doubt is the case.)

Have you or Anjilly contacted Midori Aoi? That might be a good way to clear the air, see what's going down.

But honestly, I'm not sure there's that much plagiarism going on. Your OFU is an ensemble cast affair, while hers is more centered around one character going around doing stuff. Also, it reads more like a high school thing than it does a guide on how not to write fanfics in the A:TLA continuum. I dunno.

I suggest you contact her about it first before you do anything else. That might help clear the air a bit...

No disclaimer of "fanfiction universities are Miss Cam's idea", and no trace of Midori Aoi in the Wiki or the Board. Not good.
I didn't search for similarities between your OFU and hers because I don't have the time, however.

I know that PPC and OFUs are separate entities, but effectively seems that a random girl decided to open her own OFU-lookalike. In my personal opinion, nothing wrong about that. Love for canon and good writing is always a good thing.

But pagiarizing somebody else's work is always bad.

...chiefly, that you have to wait a month before you can ask for Permission. Knowing how the things work doesn't really mean that much if we don't know who you are, so to speak. We have that month so the people here can get to know you.

Unless a month really has passed since you first came into the fold, in which case, I don't know how to keep up with things.

Bonjour! Hello and Welcome to the PPC fellow Newbie! I think if you're going to join us here you may want some nice warm Poutine from here up North with Bleepka-laced gravy! Happy to have you here with us!

Nice to have you! :D Have some goat milk! You can never have too much goat milk. *chucks goat milk at you*

Hi! Huanying guanling! (that never gets old. Note: regular mandarin Chinese, not fangirl Japanese)
Here is a Luggage, who will eat all your enemies! Made out of sapient pearwood, this is the best baggage ever!
(Note: the Luggage is from the discworld)

Warning: The Luggage, at first might eat- bad Luggage! no eating Feli- "Urinating dog" Don't eat me!!!

Such a warm welcome! And so many gifts o_o I'll need an extra Bag of Holding soon.

Thanks, everyone for the greets of awesome. Thankfully I've been able to lift my exile to the Couch of Shame, with judicious Ben & Jerry's bribery, so I can post in comfort :P

ShatteredSanity, you were half right - the name's Latin, but mostly from the given genus for domestic cats. I'm one of those 'Furry' creatures who pop up from time to time. But a relatively normal one. I've left firm instructions to all my friends to shoot me as soon as I develop into some sort of twisted hybrid with an impossibly contrived name and strange fetishes.

I wish I could say my voice acting was up for people to laugh at, but the radio plays are still in editing. I can share audio files for my games reviews of dubious quality though.
www.blackcatmedia.ucoz.com/review
(If doctorlit asked for examples, it doesn't count a shameless self-advertising. Right?)

Here, have a gameboy color. You can play it to entertain yourself while on the Couch of Shame. It comes with pokemon yellow, but be careful, it's likely to explode.

Have some Bleepka, and your two cents!

Here's an impossibly difficult piano piece: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F7GNQAO4T4

Another aspiring voice actor! Welcome welcome welcome!

Have a Holy Hand Grenade (not to be used against lagomorphs of any kind. ALWAYS count to three before use-four is too much, and five is right out)

Welcome, new friend I technically met last night! Have an accordion cat!

Voice acting, eh? Anywhere we can hear your work?

Good to see new faces around here. Have some Glistening Oil.

Hello!
Felis is diverged from Felix right? Meaning luck?
Anyways, nice to meet you.

Hi, have some fudge!

It's great to have new guys around here!

Here, have some Shostakovich for the road:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPlBykom2CQ

Welcome to the Board! Here, have some chocolate, and enjoy your stay!

And don't worry. We don't bite... much.

Have some shoots and leaves!

Have some cookies, a bone, a shape-shifting dog and a bunch of raptors. You'll know what to do.

Nice to have a fellow reviewer here (in my case a former one, but eh, details), and I hope you show up in the IRC more often - I think I missed you there!

Keep having fun here and shine on, you crazy diamond o/

Sure it's kind of gross, but, unlike the spear incident, it's within the realm of physical possibility. So unless the actual writing was horrific, I think it comes under the heading of the Slash-Sporking Guide on the Wiki (even though it's het, but the point still applies):

"Slash, however, and what makes it bad, is rather more of a heated subject. The usual place we run into trouble with this is on higher rated, PWP and kinkfic. Because of this, the Prime Directive of Sporking Bad Slash, for me at least, is 'Your Kink Is Not My Kink'. Our job is not to judge other people's taste in porn. People are allowed to like what they like, and people are entitled to their opinion. If they think that Character A urinating into Character B's mouth is a turn-on, that's entirely their business. And if they've managed to justify Character A and Character B wanting to engage in such an activity in decent-enough prose, then you should leave them to it. Yes, even if in your personal canon, Character A and Character B would rather die a thousand deaths than engage in what is charmingly referred to as "watersports". Unless it's specifically said in canon that Character A and Character B don't like watersports, then there is always the chance it can be justified with some clever writing and a twisty set of speculations on their thoughts."

How do you even come up with something like that?

Look, you might think the comedy wasn't good and the characters were nasty, but I really liked this mission. You did a really good job.

I also liked the exorcism. I added a paragraph to the Sue-wraith page on the Wiki to report your agents' discovery of the new wraith type. Why in the world didn't we have this already?--I mean, there are SO many fics where characters, for no good reason, turn evil and start killing things. Especially for really flimsy reasons like "I suddenly decided I liked Divination and some random old guy told me I had to become a Death Eater"... yeah.

You might wanna check the entry to make sure it's what you intended.

http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/Sue-wraith

this has been my favorite wraith battle. Ever. Of all time. Reading through the whole mission was so worth it just to get to that.

I just want to point out one thing: "The few Death Eaters that were there started leaving. Until Draco Malfoy asked, giving a loud hiccup as the paragraph ended on a comma.
'What if muggles are there, master?'"
The "giving a loud hiccup as the paragraph ended on a comma" part is in bold as though it were part of the badfic quote. (Unless the badfic was actually mentioning paragraphs and commas? 'Cause that would be weird.)

And hey, who's to say that things can't get worse between agents from here?

But yeah, that was a bad fanfic. I mean, how incidentally idiotic could the plot get? That was a lot of stupid to cram into one fic. Fortunately, though, I've seen worse. MUCH worse, and shockingly it wasn't even from the HP continuum.

Still, entertaining mission, even if you're not happy with it.

(Incidentally, I thought about a really great revenge plan Kirill could concoct for when we do the co-sporking of that Narnia fic when we get to that which would then backfire on Kirill in a really, really crazy way. I'll tell you more in chat if you're on tonight.)

Exactly that happened to me too! Somebody, I guess, liked the name and plot of my fic. I decided to click on it, *just* to see what it's about, and it's about the SAME THING EXACTLY, so I told her so, and she went all defensive, but in the end I got her to publicly announce that she had been *inspired* by me... and to check out my fic.

Mess with me.

So, basically, I'm saying to just gently prod them at first, not in a review, but a PM, because they get all angry you're makin' it public, then, if they don't respond, ask a bit LESS politely. If this goes on, review it. If that doesn't work and you're on the brink of tears as they continue plagiarizing, alert the FF.net builders for assistance.

-Laly :)

Well, I have a fic that somebody wrote a spin-off of. It was a very blatant AU, but I guess that's why somebody spun off it.

She asked me beforehand, though.

Sorry I can't help more. I don't really know what I'd do in this situation. if somebody ever copied my fic, then I probably would never know.

My fandoms are just too big to ever detect a single copied fic in...

Well, I kind of did the same thing, but asked the author before posting and got enthusiastic approval.

You might just wanted to say, "Hey, I think your thing was inspired by mine, next time you do it do you mind asking?"

Um, I'm not familiar with your fandom at all, so I probably can't help much... sorry.


There's only one thing left for me to do.

Have some chocolate?

Cant one of your agents squeeze into the cockpit while the other takes the chair? Like, one agent is in the place where the feet go while the other agent pilots normally?

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1138958/1/Teisel_Bonne_vs_The_Map

Why did I get this idea stuck in my head? I KNOW it's going to be really, really hard to pull off, but it got stuck in my brain and I knew it was going to nag at me until I did it. So I started it. And then, much to my annoyance, discovered that I am apparently the only person on the planet who knows both canons, and so I have nobody to giggle over it with.

What could possibly go wrong? A lot, as it turns out. One of my buddies described Shadow of the Opera to me, and even though I'm almost completely unfamiliar with the Sonic franchise, I made her send it to me so I could share it here, because, well, the WTF speaks for itself. I'm not entirely sure the whole thing wasn't run through Google Translate a few times in a few languages, because English does NOT work that way. From Chapter 1:

On the rainy night, there was the Opera house with Opera cast. They are mobians. Just then, a young rabbit came up the stage with her chao.
"Everyone! We have a new member who will be joining us!" She said excitedly.
"Really, Cream?" A pink hedgehog asked. Cream nodded.
"Well who is he or she?" A red echidna asked.
"She's a pretty hedgehog. Her name is Maria." Cream replied. The mobians looked at each other with concern.

Outside the Opera house, a carriage stopped by. A elder man opened the door for a yellow hedgehog who dresses in a grey jacket and a hat on.
"Come out, Miss Maria. Your life is here." A elder man said impatiently. Maria sighed sadly and stepped out of the carriage. She got her suit case in her hands, her eyes closed, her head was down as she was walking up the stairs. The carriage leaves as Maria opens the door of the Opera house. As she was inside, voices were heard from across the hallway to the doors that leads to the stage. Maria walks to the doors and opens them and saw the cast practicing their acts and singing.
"Um.... Hello?" Maria called. A blue hedgehog, Sonic, sees her and smiles at her, he ran up to her.
"Hey there! You must be Maria, right?" He asked.
"Yes. I was told that I would be here with you." Maria replied while taking off her hat.
"Yeah, we know. And..... we're sorry about your father." Sonic says as he scratches his head. Maria closes her eyes again, not showing her tears in her eyes.
"You don't need to be, sir. Though it was very upsetting." Maria says opening her blue eyes again.
"Yeah. Oh! By the way, I'm Sonic the Hedgehog! Let me introduce you everyone else here." Sonic says while bringing Maria to the stage.
"Ahh! You kicked me!" A pink hedgehog yelled at the red echidna who was on the floor and now stood up.
"It was an accident, Amy! I slipped!" He yelled.
"Hmph! You always 'slip', Knuckles. You're almost as worse as Silver." Amy says.
"What'd you say?!" A white hedgehog cried.
"People!" Sonic yelled., everyone turned to Sonic's attention and sees Maria. "Everybody, this is Maria. She's going to be living here with us." Sonic says. Maria looks at the mobians shyly.
"Umm.... Hello there." She says.
"Oh, nice to meet you!" Amy says nicely. "I'm Amy Rose."
"Knuckles the Echidna."
"Rouge the Bat." The white bat introduced in a rude way. Maria ignores her.
"I'm Silver the Hedgehog." A white hedgehog said. "And this is Blaze the Cat." The purple cat nodded at Maria.
"I'm Miles Prower." A yellow fox said "But call me 'Tails' like everybody else."
"And I am Cream. It's so nice to meet you, Miss Maria." The rabbit says with a smile. Maria made a small smile to everyone.
"Nice meeting you too." She says. "Is there a room for me in this place?"
"Well of course there is!" A green hedgehog replied. "The name's Manik, by the way. The room for you is the one on the top floor." He says.
"NO!!!" Everyone cried out except Rouge and Knuckles. Maria was confused.
"What?" Manik asked with a funny look.
"Maria is NOT staying in that room alone." Blaze added.
"Why not?" Maria asked.
"That room is forbidin!" A voice said, a rabbit came out from the shadows. She was wearing a black dress.
"Madame Vanilla!" Everyone said.
"Mother! You're here!" Cream says surprisingly.
"Hello Cream dear. Maria, I welcome you to the Opera house, but the room from the top floor is forbidin. You have to be in Cream and Amy's room." Vanilla says.
"But, what's wrong with that forbidin room?" Maria asks.
"It was his room, but never sleeps there anymore. I promised that room of his will never be taken." Vanilla replied.
"'His'? Who's room is it?" Maria asks.
"I can't say anymore, dear. I'm sorry. Amy, Cream, take Maria to your room that you two will have to share with her.
"Yes ma'am." Amy says walking to the left side where the stairs were. Cream took Maria by the hand by leading her to the stair and the room.
Above the girls who are going inside the room, a black figure watches them with red eyes. He then walks away.
"A newcomer in my Opera house...." He whispers. "The girl will be well trained here by Madame Vanilla."

... are the literate bad ones.

I was reading this Dragon Age fic earlier and it had an interesting concept... and it seemed to address some subtle issues... but the more I read it the more I realized that even though the grammar was good and even though the construction was OK, the whole story revolved around getting the heroine laid over and over again. Somehow her awesome feats of combat were built on excuses. She managed things that would be totally unthinkable. And she bent the rules of the canon in order to be both a warrior and a mage at the same time...

Yes, the character was different from the norm. And I almost liked the thing. I almost thought it was a goodfic.

But it was just a literate suefic.

CURSES.

In a TV show about a police family in New York with less than 100 fics, I have already found:

-the "I can tell off any character and always be right" Sue
-TWO spankfics ... the recipient of course is 27 years old...
-a perfect example of a "heroes like redheads" and "I'm better than your wife so dump her and come with me" Sue
-One story that lacks SPaG to the point where the summary states: "Danny gets too ruff with a suspect"

I'm beginning to see Pratchett's points on assisted suicide, i.e.: just kill me now...

Did I mention I found all this in a couple of quick scans of 71 fics? 71 fics!

I know iv'e posted a link to it in the boards a little while ago but, my god...Its just so horrible! "Why WoD WHY?"
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6736078/1/You_Belong_With_Me

AKA "I knew it was a bad idea. Why did I go looking for Ivanhoe fanfic?"

Now, in principle I don't think this is a bad idea. I couldn't pull it off, but I have only casual knowledge of Harry Potter and don't really care enough to put the effort into it. And here lies my "Why?"

The author gave as his/her first justification for why he/she had written this fic that it would require no creative input - just merging Scott's plot with Rowling's characters.

Why? Why, author, do you claim to love Ivanhoe and yet say that giving it an entirely new cast will require no effort? The only way that would be possible would be to simply do a find-and-replace on the names, but then why even bother? If I want to read Ivanhoe, I'll read Ivanhoe. You say it's an AU and you care more about characterisation than canon (by which I assume you mean plot) but how then can you say that this will require no creative effort on your part?

Why, author?

(And why do I keep being surprised and upset by this sort of thing?)

The souls left behind after a creature is dead seems to be energy more or less - I think that any souls leftover from killing a sue should just be collected by the agent to go use back in HQ in various devices.

You've reminded me why I like reading about Orken so much. I look forward to you're next mission, and I hope to see more of Agent Orken/Miss DeMarr (and Nut). Hopefully you'll see this before it completely falls off the first page.

Though I wish we'd be able to do that interlude together that we'd talked about. *shrugs*

Is it just me, or are you missing a couple of commas right at the end, in the dialogue?

Otherwise, good show old chap... except that I know nothing about your fandom.

Your RC number has the last three digits of the RC number I was thinking of using! It'll be a long time before I have permission, so there is a very good chance I’ll end up changing it, (especially if you chose it for the same reason I chose it) but seriously, what are the chances of that? Are you by chance an animation/Pixar fan? :D

As for needing a beta, I've never beta-ed anything before, and I've only started seriously writing in about the last 6 months or so; but I think your example was great. You managed to get both back-stories and descriptions in in a way that didn't slow down or clog the narrative, and it was short, sweet and to the point, which is exactly how I think an introduction should be. Also, I liked the short bit with the SO. XD I don’t think it needs to be changed or anything, but you might want to be a second opinion, just in case. c:

As an ineperienced Google.docs user, I've run into a problem with document privacy. Any tips?

Also, If I do get permission, where should I put up my writings? I was thinking maybe LiveJournal...

Happy Birthday!

Or should that be 'belated happy birthday'? Anyway, hope you had a wonderful day!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23_enigma
(To quote Murdoc Niccals: "The phrase 'This is a big load of rubbish' contains exactly 23 letters.")

Happy Birthday!

*dances around happily and hands over a brightly-wrapped present* Happy birthday to you!

Wow, four years, PPC time sure is fun! Here's to hoping you have many more here too!

*Switches the music to CaramellDansen Speedy Cake Remix, Flees*

Mwa-Haha!

Enjoy this official Acme Hammerspace Mallet as a birthday present! Now, where's that cake?

*starts eating food*

Here, have some violin variations. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvAxdJBabBM&playnext=1&list=PL26773AEE5C990A6F

Rather, it was three days ago. Totally forgot to say something on the Board, mainly because the night previously I'd been laid low by food poisoning, so it's sort of been the last thing on my mind for the past couple of days. (I'm better now, though.) Pleased to say I'm now a legal adult and can now access those livejournal accounts without having to log off first.

Happy birthday! Best wishes, joy and happiness and all that good stuff.

Thanks for all the well-wishes and presents and general fun. ^_^

It's nice to have a birthday on the Board~

*Stares at cake stupidly* OUO

Advice: Avoid the cakes with cyanide and acid. They usually don't go down well.

Happy Birthday!
Oh god, a party with PPC agents. It's either going to be completely AWESOME or traumatically AWESOME!!

*goes nuts as ordered*

YAAAAAAYY BIRTHDAYS!

*hands over a replica tricorder and a plushie Dalek*

Felicem diem natalem, felicem diem natalem, felicem diem natalem Cassiiiiiiiie, felicem diem natalem! How's my Latin?

Where did you want the barbecue grill?

Have this flask of Bleepka. But keep an eye on it, some Agent could try to steal it!

Yours is just one day after Ray Bradbury's...Nice.

Happy birthday! ... Ooh, cupcakes! *steals one*

Have a triple chocolate cupcake! (Chocolate with chocolate icing and chocolate chips)

(Blows party horn)

Happy birthday! Have a great time, and may all your loot be of the 'phat' variety!

*makes B-line for the pile of music to avoid getting roped into any games.*

Welcome to the board! Here, have some goat milk!

Here's an awesome piano piece: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F7GNQAO4T4

Great to see another programmer! Anyway, have some Bleepka, your two cents, and some Obscure Syntax.

And you are right; we are awesome. But always looking for new awesome people to join us.
Anyway, have a spoon and a fish-bowl.

Sorry for the late welcome, my schedule is a little funny. I'm glad you are interested in the PPC, I hope you have a lot of fun!

Hi! Wow, lots of new people coming huh? Well anyways, welcome to PPC! Have a welcome doughnut!

Hi, have some fudge!

Greetings, Catfish, and welcome a-Board!

Have a can of worms (warning: DO NOT OPEN) and a decorative .jar to keep your coffee in.

Have this awesome-laced cookie.

Well met, rookie! Please enjoy this stylish fireproof chapeau as a welcoming gift.

Feel free to avail yourself of the amenities. And don't tease the minis, they bite.

Oh, and have some Glistening Oil.

Glad to meet you. What fandoms are you into? And which OFU did you find?

Also, have a bag of pebbles and a Random Shiny Object. May they help you defeat the Sues!

Hello and welcome to the Board! Here, have some chocolate, and enjoy your stay!

Welcome to the PPC! We love new people!

Here, have some Bartok for the road:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U6PkSYv2l4

Good to see another person into programming! Have a python :)

Here, have a conical hat and a tea biscuit!

The hat is made from tin foil and duct tape, and will keep out the conspiracy theorists.

The tea biscuit is somewhat stale. Sorry about that, I've been away for a couple of weeks.

Welcome, new friend! Have a jar of muddy water!

Out of curiosity, what OFU were you reading when you heard about us?

Welcome, catfish! I can't speak for myself, but everyone else around here is most definitely awesome.

As for your gift-A Holy Hand Grenade! (Warning-do not use near rabbits!)

Catfish? You confuse me, new person. Anyway, welcome to the PPC. It's traditional to present new people with gifts, but I was just robbed by a giant squid. Instead of a gift, I shall give you advice: Don't trust giant squids if they offer to hold your stuff.

Frodo will only be part of the framing story. He's reading Bilbo's story, and it will end with him putting the book down and embarking on the voyage to the Grey Havens.

I'm excited because of Martin Freeman as Bilbo and Benedict Cumberbatch as Smaug and Sauron. Mainly because I'm a shameless Sherlock fan, of course. Forget the badfic, I'm looking forward to the movie!

I know I won't be able to see Stephen Fry as anyone other than himself, so that's not great...but I remain cautiously optimistic.

I can see one way in which Frodo can be involved without it being bad, and that is if the story is framed as Bilbo telling Frodo about the adventures. Part of me thinks this would, in fact, be an excellent way of doing it as it would allow Bilbo's thoughts to be expressed in a reasonable way.

My preemptive revue: The book is better. :D

*sharpens spork* We will be ready for them.

I did find her birth year ironic though. Seriously? 1984?

I especially liked these lines in the second chapter: "I was intent on writing a fanfiction today, of course, one that starred Maccus and an OC who's pretty much me. Some people may call it Mary - sueish, but I don't care." And why would she be college age when she's 17? The Mary Sue is an idiot too; five seconds means it's about a mile away, not five. And no way would you go out when there's a storm on a beach- I've been to the coast when it's just been raining hard and it's really nasty weather. Such a brilliant figure.

And isn't Tori a nickname for 'Victoria'? Wow. Just wow.

Just from the opening paragraph alone, this looks bad. For starters, she has her math off... (It is impossible to be born in 1984, ANY kind of PotC fan, and seventeen. Given that, you know, the first PotC movie came out when someone born in 1984 would be 19... Much less the second or third...) And yup, it just goes downhill from there...

Also, I don't recognize your name. New here?

I'd be happy to go through it, could you just set sharing settings to 'public,' please? Your agents look interesting, but I do need to see the actual writing-- that's the important part, after all.

I'd like to thank Digital Socrates and Will-O-Wisp for giving my Writing Sample a once-over. Thanks, guys!

Anyways, I'm glad this fic is killed... what exactly does the mage underwear do?

My favourite parts were the remark about the scene being like if David Lynch and Neil Gaiman wrote a sex-scene together, and the one about a stormtrooper trying to hit a named protagonist. I think the last one could make future missions ... interesting.

I know I say this about all your missions, but I like this one. You've done a really great job with your characters, Kirill especially. Cy is fun, I can't wait to see more of him. Great job.

I think it goes without saying at this point, but I just love how Kirill and Zug go around doing stuff. And now with Cy thrown into the mix, that's gong to make things interesting.

Shame you're not going to go in with the triple act, though. But hey, what can I do?

Fun times are had. Great mission!

does not mean she was granted the "Summarily Unfit" label, or even that her request was processed.

So, unless you write that she is found unfit for HP fandom, she can be sent on missions there.

And even if she is found unfit, she can probably still be sent on missions there, because of rule of funny (and bad record keeping).

killitkillitkillitkillitkillit...

*Ahem*

I mean...

Just...

Seriously? This isn't a parody or something? Meeeeeeh....

Very tempting. I'll see what I can do.

I believe you are new around here, unless I have simply forgotten your username, which is a distinct possibility. So, what are some of the fandoms you're interested in?

(Also, as a side note, we try not to double-post, since that pushes an older post of the edge of the world. Whenever you can, add a new badfic post onto one that already exists, even if you didn't start it yourself. Thank you!)

Well, about PJO, since Annabeth's hat and Riptide are characters on the character list on ff.net, there is a new crack paring. Hattide, or Annabeth's hat/ Riptide. The result? A couple crackfics about these two inanimate objects.

Well, my first fanfic that I read was a Percy Jackson one, so during the time where I was obsessed with PJO, I'd had my share of badfics. Most of them included a 'Sue pairing up with Nico di Angelo. I also found a parody sue, where legions of 'Sues attack Nico and Camp Half Blood battles the 'Sues in a parodical fashion. Anyways, if you have enough agents, (sorry, but I am a supporter and Boarder, but not an agent) on ff.net, go to the genre "romance" and have the primary character as Nico, and there you go! A heck of a lot of Glaurunging PJO 'Suefics.

This is the current semi-Official Badfic Pluggage Thread. I think it's safe to say this belongs there.

I'd help you kill the thing, but I'm kind of new here and I don't have Permission. Maybe scout around for agents who're into this fandom?

Space on the front page of the board is at a premium, so if you have a second topic you want to post and it's similar to one you just posted, just reply to the first one.

I'd like to disagree though that bad spelling and grammar is an obvious sign of badfic. Though it certainly isn't a characteristic of goodfic, I don't agree with the implication that only fic with bad spelling and grammar is sporkable. I've PPCed a few fics that actually had excellent spelling and grammar. I even complimented one of the Sues on this (after the charging she asked: "Wasn't there anything you liked?" The charging agent replied: "Your spelling was good.").

For me an obvious sign of a badfic is a plot that doesn't work, because it is contrived, or because all the canon characters seem to be replaced by wax statues or cardboard cutouts.

The most obvious sign is that I am making riffs while reading it for the first time. That means a story is bad and it means I can be funny about it. There's no point in writing a PPC mission if it's not going to be funny.

There's no addition procedure. I often (but not always) review the fic before I PPC it, pointing out some of the issues (not all, because you'd be left without material for a mission and you'd overwhelm the author). If and how the author responds is not really important for how I proceed. Unless that respond is: thanks, I will rewrite completely. I've only had that response twice on a review, once for a story I wanted to mission. I asked that author if she was okay with a PPC mission of the original story. She had to think about it, but after a few weeks (by which time I had already written the mission) she said "Okay". Incidentally, I didn't kill that Sue; I let her die of the injuries sustained in the story, but with her admitting she had erred.

I used to notify authors before posting a PPC mission. Just a friendly message that I wrote a spoof about their character and if they felt personally attached to that character they probably didn't want to read my story. I post on FFnet so it's relatively easy for badficcers to come across my sporking of their fics. I stopped doing that a while ago. I think it's because I wanted to notify someone that turned out to have me blocked after a review I left. Interestingly, this author put up an author's note on her latest chapter saying I should have contacted her about posting my PPC mission. (Mind boggles)

Others will probably advise you not to notify authors in advance to avoid flame wars, but I haven't actually ever been flamed by any of the badficcers. So, it's really up to you whether you send the author a polite message or not.

You popped in and then vanished for a while! Like I did when I joined!

Here, let me link to you some things of interest that should answer any and all questions you may have. The wiki is not our SOCIAL hub, but it is our archive for documents and such.

FIRST: Da Rulez, if you haven't read them already.

Guide to the PPC

FAQ for Newbies

Permission

Mission Writing Guide

Slash-Sporking Guide

Posting New Mission Reports

This may seem like a lot of reading, but it's really not. A lot of these links are somewhat redundant, for they're all guides others have written at various times.

And don't think these are all some kind of strict rule code. The idea is that we follow a certain spirit and basic protocol when getting Permission, facing badfic, and publishing our work as to make it as pleasant as possible. Whether this is by avoiding conflict with a badfic author, promoting harmony in the PPC itself, or simply writing in the spirit of the PPC, we're a peace-loving bunch. We're here to have fun, not restrict or belittle others, above all.

Welcome back to the community! Glad to have you. :)

I wasn't here back in April, but welcome back all the same. ^^

As for selecting fics, it is very much a question of personal preference and taste.
Besides horrible spelling and grammar, things you can look for are canon-breaks, out-of-character characters and Sues. The wiki [light shines down and a choir of angels is heard] has this entry on badfics, http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/Badfic you can check out to get ideas.
You should however first and foremost look for something that can be sporked in a funny way. When you read a potential badfic, you can try MSTing for yourself and see if it gives you any ideas.

As for your questions, we do not notify the author, neither before nor after we spork their fic. It is considered something like a personal attack on the author, and besides it attracts whiners and flamers and we don't want them.
If you want to give them a helpful review before sporking, feel free to do so, but it is in no way required. Also, for truly terrible badfics, it can be impossible to give reviews, that isn't simply: "Oh god, the stupid! It burns!"

Hope this was helpful; otherwise feel free to ask again. There are wiser and more experienced persons than me who can help out.

From what I've heard, I can't say she doesn't deserve it. :p

(It's definitely not against the rules to re-post a request if no PG has had a chance to answer it, so don't worry about that.)

To start with, I rather like your agents. They're a bit flat, but a few missions would flesh them out well and there's potential for a lot of amusing clashes.

But your writing sample has several problems, most of which seem to be caused by carelessness. You are missing capitals in several names, such as "Isabella swan" and "forks". You have several punctuation probelms, uch as putting the commas and full stops ending dialogue outside the relevant quotation marks, using a full stop to end dialogue when a tag (starting with a lower-case word) is still to follow, and in some cases punctuation (quotation marks, full stops) is missing entirely. There are similar mistakes in your agent bios.

As for the writing itself, your narrative did keep me interested - any attempt to reform that girl wins in my book! - but the structure of your sentences sometimes felt forced. To be honest, exchanging Bella's angsty-teenager-ness for the trauma of a torture surviour doesn't make her more likeable. On the other hand, the way you were writing her is what kept my interest - she felt like a real person, especially in the first few paragraphs, with the red eye flight and the mental rant about her stepfather - and I feel that you could make a much better reformation story out of this by removing the torture and crossover and just re-writing her story straight. So, points for that.

I think you could write missions quite well and would be glad to give you Permission if not for the sheer number of simple mistakes that you don't seem to have bothered to correct. Please, take some time to review your punctuation in detail before posting, get a beta to double-check, and re-apply when you're confident that you will spot all the tiny errors in a badfic as well as the big issues.

As a side note, your DragonOfLore bio says you're thirteen - am I right to guess, given that you posted your first fic there in 2008, that this is just out of date? (Do forgive me if you've said this elsewhere - I'm a tad rushed and can't find back your introduction post.)

Also, it's poor form to give us a link to the badfic that we can't follow. I realise you didn't make it a registered-access-only, but the summary you gave, while showing how appalling it is, doesn't let me see the actual prose if the badfic, and therefore, what sort of smaller errors it has and at what frequency. This isn't a deciding factor, but it does make life difficult.

So. Permission denied. I'm sorry. Please know that you can re-apply anytime, as soon as the above issues are fixed.

it's okay to repost a permission request. PGs scroll down to see if they've missed anything, but I don't think they click on the next page button.

Good luck.

Here are some bags of punctuation (commas, periods, and apostrophes). You may need them in your sporking adventures!

Would you prefer cookies or toffee-chocolate bars?

Welcome to the board. Hope you have a good time.

Have some Glistening Oil.

In the name of the God-Emperor of the Imperium of Man...

(Kneels)

I welcome you to the Board.

Always good to see a new face. Please make sure to check out our wiki, and feel free to poke around and ask lots of questions; we like that.

:)

Have some Bleepka and your two cents.

Hi, have some fudge!

We love getting new people! =D

Here, have some three-part Mahler for the road:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt1q2Z1s5p8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UuRV3Yrrg0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTlaxjDwtns&feature=related

Welcome, new friend! Have a future kangaroo!

Welcome to the Board! Here, have some chocolate, won't you?

Have a large box and some pine tar!

Hey there! Have a turret. I stole it from GlaDOS. It's different.

Congratsi :)

A few comments:

I like your writing - it's engaging. And your creativity is good and PPCish - the hologram waterfall and adjacent graffiti made me laugh. I also like the agents you've sketched out in your bios; they're fairly unique and have a good deal of potential. In practice, however, you lean a little bit towards speshulness - having Ally be so notorious that a dozen or more agents won't work with her, and spending ten words describing Grace's hair in her first paragraph, for instance. It's not terrible. Just be aware of your tendency to do this and you should be fine.

I also have a problem with your characterisation of the Sunflower Official - characterisation is, of course, a subjective thing, but I can't see him saying that he "thought it best not to insist" when agents threaten him. The SO I remember reading in TOS is a lot more firm than that, regardless of threats. So please keep an eye on that too, and perhaps re-write some parts of that scene?

Also, I don't think the SO can nod, nor that he has an intern acting as a secretary, nor that anyone in the PPC would (dare to) move someone else's belongings. However, these are relatively minor. Again, it's something to keep in mind, not bad enough to be denied Permission. As, obviously, I haven't.

Overall, you're good to go. Have fun :)

Sorry-- I saw it, didn't have time, and then disappeared for a week. Back now, though, and I have replied-- there's a bit of an issue with your sample.

The Permission Givers are usually quite busy, so if you're lucky, one might see your request before it drops off to page 2, but if it does, it's completely okay to repost it.
Give it a little bit of time, and don't lose hope - you could also try waiting for a PG in the IRC channel, usually one or two of them eventually drop by there.

...is less whether or not it will happen and more that we need to figure out exactly WHAT causes the Mini-sue to spawn. Because no matter what happens, a Mini-Sue WILL spawn from that mistake.

So in that... you can either have the Mini-Sue show up once and have it attributed to how it's spelled in the title, or force your agents to have to murder a Mini-Sue constantly because the fic keeps spelling it wrong.

I say: go with whatever the Narrative Law of Comedy will work best with.

I should have included a link in my main post. The fic's here: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4766575/1/Rosebel_and_Her_Life_Before

As I find is often the answer to questions people ask around here, the only real rule is the Rule of Funny. Go with whatever works best for you and your story.

It is common that when someone uses plural s instead of posessive, it creates one or more copies of whatever is being discussed.
Likewise, when someone uses possesive instead of plural, you can make something out of it. In the excample you mention it could create "the Pevensie's all". What an "all" is and how it looks, would then be up to you to decide.

However, I don't think that there are any hard and fast rules for what excactly creates and a mini and what makes other kinds of shenanigans. I have seen other writes do it differently and never seen them geting corrected for it. My preferences also has a lot to do with the fact that a) they give room for other kinds of comedy than simply having a mini appear and b) they keep the number of minis down.

Using a common spelling for an uncommon name, would definitely produce a mini. Unless you have a amusing idea for doing something else with the misspelling, in which case the Rule of Funny applies.
In my second mission the author wrote "Wildlings" instead of "Wilders" and rather than making a mini, I chose to have some Wildlings from A Game of Thrones appear. I was up to my eyebrows in minis in that mission, so it was nice to do something else.

For example, in my last mission, the author missed using the correct punctuation and said "Rogers" instead of "Roger's". I recorded this as a mini rather than having multiples of Roger running around.

here are Chapter Five and Six of the MST of My Inner Life!

Chapter Five


Chapter Six

Who is Mr. Blue? He only appeared in the second part.

...I am experiencing a Legendary Badfic (I think) through a sporking.

Dear Eru. Her beginning AN made me so ANGRY. What a...something.

On the whole "queer" bit, though, I think I'll disagree. Mostly because I'm the kind of person who would *deliberately* bash people over the head with the proper meaning of words like queer and gay and bitch and ass and retarded. As opposed to getting angry because someone's using the actual meaning of a word, not the common meaning it's acquired in the last several decades (?).

But that's just me. Can't wait for more.

I really admire how much your agents can stand. I think that the excact point where my agents would have been screaming and clawing at the door to get out was "IT’S A DAMN SHAME TO KNOW THAT THERE ARE ADULTS OUT THERE WHO CANNOT CONDUCTIVE THEMSELVES IN THE SIMPLEST MANORS THEIR PARENTS HAVE TAUGHT THEM!"

I love your MST and, as always, I also love your agents. Hug Maria from me!

That was a really dangerous Sue, if she managed to warp even Agents.

Loved the "We Have The Repair Kit" part. I'm not really sure that that was the reason why it exists...

I always like your missions that include the Dummy. I liked Allison's inner dialogue on this mission.

*dodges the fist of the first question* Floaters are basically the "overflow" department: they are supposed to be able to spork whatever fic they get, so they tend to have "basic" equipment (Remote Activator for portals, CADs and so on), plus the things needed for the particular mission (weapons for Sue slaying, canon sources for exorcism, et cetera). However, feel free to play out this as you like: if the Agents lack the right tech, they have to improvise, and improvisation is equal to laughs.

About weapons, we have an Armoury in HQ, so nearly every standard weapon is avaible. The best course of action IMHO is to get a sword/other melee weapon and a gun, in order to cover most continua. Sometimes weapons can be "obtained" as part of the disguise if it is iconical to whatever the Agent is disguising as (such as blasters for Star Wars clone troopers/imperial army)

I don't know too many sites for posting large amounts of text, but I know a few, namely Live Journal, Wordpress, and Tumblr. There are no doubt lots of others. I think that, of those, I would recommend Wordpress most.

I was just reminded about this awesome post by the creator of Manly Guys Doing Manly things that I figured I'd share.

http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/589

...is probably already here.

In a nutshell: just because some people misuse terms like "Mary Sue" doesn't mean we should stop using the term altogether. We have our own definition, and it fits the general definition that's in Wikipedia, so I don't think a terminology change is in order.

What makes a Sue? For me, it's proportion. Does the character have mighty powers? Okay. Does no one, not even the antagonists, have powers as great? Not okay. Is the character gorgeous? Fine. Is the character the only person so described in the entire story? Not fine. Does the character have legendary weaponry? Great. Does the character have legendary weaponry, amazing looks, a cute animal friend, magical abilities, and an angsty tragic past...a combination of which none of the villains could hope to match? Why hello there, Drizzt Do'Urden. What a surprise that you always come out on top!

The analogy I like to use is the SIMs. You know how in the SIMs game you have a certain amount of skill/personality points to begin with, and you have to choose how to distribute them? For example, your SIM can be a social butterfly...but will then have to be a total slob to compensate. You can't just have all of the personality traits be set on maximum, because...well, because then everyone would do that! And then all the characters would be *gasp* the same! Suethors (of whatever gender) do the equivalent of using cheat codes to create a "SIM" for themselves that really shouldn't be possible. And when they put these characters in with other SIMs whose creators have actually followed the rules of points distribution...well, no wonder other SIMs get outshone, and no wonder everyone hates the cheatcode!SIMs.

As for Suethors and the use of female pronouns...I would be worried if we changed the pronouns to female for Suethors, and kept the pronouns gender-neutral when talking about goodfic writers. If that's the case, that has to change. BUT, if we talk about both Suethors and canon purists using female pronouns, well, isn't that a good thing? I mean, if this were anywhere else we'd be complaining about the ubiquitous use of male pronouns in the English language. I say use 'em! Just use them for goodfic and badfic authors alike--and if that bothers people, just remind them that this is the Internet, where authors might very well be lying about their gender anyway.

As for this: "And when I see novels like this praised and exalted, while I know-- know that a female protagonist doing half of that would be laughed out of the genre, it stings. And it makes me wonder."

So, a lot of people praise flat, unrealistic male characters and criticize flat, unrealistic female characters. Yes, that is indeed wrong and unfair. But why would the solution be to praise (or fail to criticize) flat, unrealistic female characters? You'll just wind up with a double-dose of bad literature! Wouldn't the solution be, rather than letting up on Mary Sue criticism, to toughen up on the criticism of the every-present Marty-Stu?

More Stu-mocking for everyone! That can only be a good thing. :P

Finally, to this: And people who characterize those non-mainstream characters as Mary Sues don't read, don't know their literary history, don't know their social history, and don't know their feminist history. Until they know any of these, and perhaps political history as well, there's no point in talking to them, because they don't even speak the same dialect as a person with a modicum of education in the real world.

I'd really have to read more of this to form a sound response to it, because as far as I can tell, we don't characterize "those non-mainstream characters" as Mary Sues. Being non-mainstream is not a requirement for being Mary Sue. If anything, in fanfiction Mary Sue is mainstream.

And for the record? Tamora Pierce is herself a Suethor. But not because of her warrior women, oh no. Because of *snicker* Veralidaine Sarrasri, and let us count the ways.

-Beautiful, such that all the boys are queuing up to be with her

-Angsty tragic past due to being illegitimate

-Demigod

-Speshul nickname that no one else has - "The Wildmage". (Note that this isn't the same as the nicknames that the Shang warriors, both male and female, get, because those names are part of the Shang culture, and Daine's nickname is the only one of its kind in existence)

-Has more wild magic in her than anyone in the history of ever

-Had not one, but SEVERAL cute animal friends, and at the end of one book actually controls the actions of all the animals in the land

-Is able to shoot a bow and hit three moving targets in the dark--which even Alanna, who is much older and more experienced with a bow than Daine, can't equal. She is, at most, fifteen years old at the time.

-Is beloved and adored by ALL the protagonists (at the end of the first book, everyone and their pet bunny wants to take her in)

-Impresses everyone she comes across, especially with her l33t archery skillz - keep in mind that she is fifteen years old!

-Is only held in contempt by people who judge her by her illegitimacy, who are all naturally mean and nasty people

-Is beloved and adored by the VILLAIN (no, really), until like the last twenty pages of the last book, in which he becomes one of the mean, nasty people who judge her by her illegitimacy! (Gee, the author wouldn't happen to have an axe to grind about that particular topic, now would she?)

-Makes a man who has been sleeping around since she was four years old want to settle down and marry her

...and I'm probably forgetting some. Again, proportion. You could get away with one of those character traits, maybe two, but twelve? The author is trying waaaay too hard to make her character likable.

My point being, although Tamora Pierce has created some of my favorite childhood characters (Keladry and Buri being my favorites), I wouldn't hold her up as an expert on Mary Sueism. (Consider Liam "The Shang Dragon" and his mood-ring eye colors. I haven't read "Lioness Rampant" in a decade and I'm still giggling over them.)

I don't think we should change our lexicon just for the sake of appearing politically correct. "Mary Sue" has been part of fandom terminology since the seventies. It is a word, and we, as thinking humans, have power over words; it is not the other way around. Other groups may be using the term incorrectly, but I think it's safe to say we are not. Also, since we typically (hopefully, preferably) have very little interaction with other internet groups, we don't need to worry about how the PPC is viewed.

As I side note, I personally dislike the Gary Stu/Marty Sam whatever distinction. To me, any character with Sueish qualities is a Mary Sue, in the same sense that any animal with feathers is a bird (or archeopteryx). I don't see the need to use a different term for a male Sue because the gender of a Sue is irrelevant. A Sue is not a Sue because she or he is a she or a he; a Sue is a Sue because of their role in the story and their interactions with other characters. Gender is a secondary detail, eclipsed by all the rest.

So, personally? Even if we reach a consensus for a new, gender-neutral term for Sues, I will continue to call the lot—female and male—Mary Sues. Because that is what they are to me.

Oh, wait! I just thought of one: Plot Vacuums. Eh? Eh?

Alright, I'm going to go off on a really weird analogy here.
So, you may be familiar with Gary's Mod, a simulator where you are basically God. You create and destroy things instantly at will, can't be hurt, can't be killed, and can do absolutely anything with the world around you. But, after awhile,it gets very boring. You never feel like you're accomplishing anything because there's no effort in it. This is what I think defines a mary sue. You just get the feeling that if the character wasn't there no one would be doing anything. The whole world gives itself to him/her, so it never feels like they have accomplished anything.

Well developed original characters, on the other hand, are more like Minecraft. It's still a creativity tool, yeah, but you have to work hard for every accomplishment and improve yourself in order to achieve your goals. It feels like the world stretches out forever and that there could be things going on that have nothing to do with you. This is how regular characters work, interacting with a world instead of controlling it, and showing development and growth as the story progresses.

That is mainly how I judge original characters. Are the playing Minecraft or Gary's Mod?

Alright, end of horrible analogy now.

What can I add to this discussion?

Well, I noticed that Maximum Ride is on the list of Canonical Sues. I disagree with that. She puts on that act because she needs to be tough and play the part of a leader. But her internal monologues show that she's just a teenager who has had a terrible life for as far back as she can remember, and it really SHOWS. Her she reacts believably, putting her family first even though she really disagrees with them sometimes. Yes, she's bad ass and she has had two good looking guys vying for her at the same time. One of those guys was BRED to want to have her children. It's stated in book, that this guy was made to be her "perfect other half". As for being speshul, she acts like its a blessing and a curse. She's part bird(she has wings) but is sensitive about showing them due to being in hiding.
Now then, lets talk about her "perfect other half". This guy is described as being "super model gorgeous"(or something to that effect) and everyone swoons when they see him. He can see the future, everyone but Max and the other guy who wants her take right to him, he can heal his own wounds, and what pisses me off the most is that he KNOWS that he was made to want Max's babies, but isn't shown to be all that distressed about it.

If I was put into that situation(which I am in my own way due to my OCD and the compulsions I have where I KNOW that it's not necessary to repeat my actions over and over and over again, but if FEELS like I should and then I get all distressed about feeling helpless over the whole thing, please pardon the run on) I would be pretty upset about it.

Yet this guy isn't. His entire existence is based around having Max's children, he knows that, and yet the most we see him angst over it is the occasional frustration.
Now you could argue that he was brain washed into it not bothering, but here's the thing: If this were true, why hasn't the flock tried to help him out? Point out when he's being all horny towards Max, have Max reject him as part of helping him, heck she doesn't even do THAT to his face! Max just sort of goes along with it, is confused about her feeling for a bit, then her boyfriend oh so conveniently leaves the flock because "thats whats best". The next book she and her "perfect other half" are having sex. At the Eifle tower. "Silhouetted against the night sky".

Who the hell is the Stu here?!

To sum up, Max is a believable character. This other guy is a Stu.

If the character is the uncanonical child of someone, and it's kind of obvious from the story that the author made that connection just to make their character special (daughters of Aslan or Sauron come to mind), then I'm far more likely to call them Sue than if the author has better reasons.

If a character has special powers and there's really no good reason for him/her to have them, and everybody respects them for it, then I'm more likely to see the character as Sue. E.g. a LotR character doesn't need powerful elemental magic. Double points if the powers are mentioned and then either only used once or never really used. Pointless powers are one thing that cause suspicion for me. A Narnia Sue I came across was given a pair of golden wings that she can bring out or put away when she wants, and the title of the first book in the trilogy is "Her Golden Wings," but I don't remember her EVER using them as anything but battle decoration. Don't give a character something they're not going to use.

For me, Sues have little character depth and (talking mostly from Narnia experience here): often have unduly tragic pasts, almost instantly fall in love with their authors' lust object, often have poorly-written prophecies about them, might have ridiculous or uncanonical powers, throw people OOC, might cause unacceptable canon breaks, don't act like real people, are often written in first person, often defeat trained canon characters in a duel (often with martial arts), have undue attention paid to them, change the way the world works...

Let me explain better. No, there is too much. Let me sum up:

I see Sues as unrealistic characters, often without much character depth and no logical reasons for anything, who warp canon (and its rules) to revolve around themselves.

I personally think that if an author offers a reasonable explanation for a Sue trait, it becomes non-Sue. There's also the fact that a few Sue traits do not a Sue make:

Once again we're falling into the exceedingly wanky trap of "any female character who's the center of a story and has good qualities MUST BE A SUE." We need to set our radar a little higher (lower?). Otherwise every heroine ever invented can be called a Sue, and that's ridiculous.
To whit:
Beautiful = not a Sue.
Loved = not a Sue.
Brilliant = not a Sue.
Powerful = not a Sue.
Plot-central = not a Sue.
Related to another character = not a Sue.
Love interest = not a Sue.
Needs to be rescued = not a Sue.
Kicks ass = not a Sue.
Whines = not a Sue.
HOWEVER. Combine three or more of the above, throw in "makes other characters act like idiots" and "warps logic and/or plotline to suit HER," and...you might have a Sue!
PS: Flavor to taste with optional ingredients such as "author apparently types with elbows" or "creator cries when criticized."
(redpanda on LJ)

I find that does a good job summing up as well.

There would be more male OCs. (I was presented with one a few weeks ago, but he's in the Bones fandom, and I don't know that.)

I think Calista made most of the first point I wanted to make: I feel that we as "Suehunters" (or people who stick the label Mary Sue on some female OCs) are accused of sexism to make us shut up. The real problem we have with characters are not addressed. Instead we are pushed in the corner of people with whom it's not possible to have a normal conversation, because we are "sexist" and can't therefore have any valuable opinions.

Do I hold female OCs to a higher standard than male OCs? i.e. do I let male OCs get away with things that I won't let a female OC get away with?

Hard to say, I haven't actually seen that many male OCs. Off the top of my head: all the male OCs I've come across in A-Team and Voyagers! fandom are Stus. That's 100 percent. I have not seen a 100 percent rate of Suish female characters.

There are probably about 20 or 30 times as many female Sues as male Sues. I'd like to think that I won't let the males get away with things I won't let the females get away with.

Description of an OC in an upcoming mission:
US Marshall arranges friend A will watch their niece for a while while they are away on a job. US Marshall doesn't make arrangements with set friend about when and where to drop off the kid, and manages to misplace the kid in a building they have never been in. The Marshall seems to be dumb as soup. Later, when the US Marshall learns the kid has met some old friends from her father, the Marshall drops everything to confront friend A in the workplace. In the process of which they threaten that friend in words, with a knife and with a gun. Friend A is a federal agent.

Does it really matter whether that Marshall is male or female? They are over the top and unfit for their job. And the story treats their behaviour as right and hilarious.

It's a Sue/Stu, because in this fandom US Marshall's take their job seriously and so do other federal agents. The US Marshall would have been arrested for their threats; not giving a sparing session in the gym with friend A.

Yesterday someone suggested to me I should write my own badfic (?) and I think I might just try substituting any of my recents female Sues with a male Sue. Although I would much rather write good fic with a female OC that is not an OC.

I'm afraid I haven't had time to read the whole discussion so far, but I think we agree about what makes a Sue or Stu. It's not what they are or what they do, but whether the people around them react in ways that make canonical sense. Coincidentally, I just re-read "Suedom," too. ^_^

Regarding Tamora Pierce, let me point out that just as we don't believe being a bad writer makes you a bad person, so being a good writer does not make you a nice person. I take serious issue with being considered not worth talking to because I choose to use a certain term, and I did go to college and graduate with a BA in English--the studies in which which included literary history, feminist literary criticism, and many other things. Please to not blindly place me in a category without ever speaking to me, thank you very much.

I stand by what I've been saying for a while: changing what you call a thing doesn't change how people feel about it. It's far easier to change a definition than to change people's hearts.

(Also, hi, I'm back!)

~Neshomeh

One more thing... wish I could edit posts, but here we go.

I see this problem lots in all kinds of minority groups: Rather than declaring equality, once they realize they're not inferior, they tend to go overboard and declare superiority--usually embarrassing the mainstream parts of the movement. There are women who call themselves feminists and claim that women are superior to men. There are groups who say blacks are better than whites. I've even met other autistic people who are autistic supremacists, claiming that autistic people are the "next step in human evolution" (biology fail, anyone?).

The feminist Mary Sue is a reflection of that. Rather than claim equality, she claims superiority. She makes herself better than everybody else--nothing truly challenges her. If the story goes against her, she changes the story. Rather than being a realistic person who is on a level playing field with everybody else, she puts herself at the top of the hierarchy and turns everybody else into playthings.

Real-life minority groups are dealing with this sort of inverted prejudice. It can be difficult because when you tell people, "No, actually, women are just as good as men; not better," you can get accused of supporting male superiority. I've been accused of being a "traitor" to autistic people because I agree that autism is a disability. It's like they can't get it through their heads that a person can be an equal to another person; and so they've got to create these unrealistic ideas that puts them at the top, undisputably. And then they fly off the handle when you correct them.

The Mary Sue is this problem personified--the person who decides that rather than creating a character who fits into the canon as an equal, they will create a character who will make canon their toy and be superior to everyone there, whether by overpowering them, seducing them, or just turning the canon into their personal playground.

I know people say Mary Sue when an OC is powerful; but that's not the big thing, at least not to me. The question is: Is the character realistic?

The power differential is also significant. If you have a very powerful character, who has very powerful opponents, then there's not a big power differential and there's no problem. For example: Harry Dresden. He's very powerful; but his enemies are just as powerful and often more so. Despite his high power level, he's not a Stu. (He's also got flaws which come back to bite him on the butt with regularity.)

Whereas, if you had someone with Harry Dresden's power level fighting opponents whom he could easily wipe the floor with, that would be a Stu, because the character would be a big old power fantasy.

The same applies for females. Check out Mariel, from the Redwall series. She's a good fighter and she can take on multiple opponents at once. She's tough, strong, and quick-thinking. But her opponents match her power level; they're a real threat to her, and she's not just standing there being awesome and grinding everyone into the dirt. Therefore, she's not a Sue.

WARNING - the following contains lots and lots of opinion.

Mary Sue, Marty Stu - the name is irrelevant. It would be nice to have some alternative gender-neutral phrase that snaps off the tongue, but we have to make do with the language we've been given. Unfortunately, said language opens us up to accusations of sexism and the like. Yes, it's true that male characters in both fanfiction and original fiction are given more leeway when it comes to being shallow self-inserts. Yes, female characters are more frequently bashed. Yes, it's a crying shame. But until we all become professional book critics (and how the world will shudder on that day, oh yes!), there is little we can personally do besides shout in the wilderness of the internet.

But anyway, what makes a Sue/Stu a Sue/Stu? Whenever I peruse a potential Suefic/Stufic, I have a mental checklist - a basic litmus test, if you will. If the story hits most or all of the points, then it's mission material.

Does the character have depth? If so, is that depth believable?
Flat, one-dimensional characters are not good for propelling a story. Neither are characters with personalities or backgrounds that make no sense. Here's an example from a DMS mission I'm working on wrapping up: the main character (a young woman) owns twelve nightclubs AND was a former top SAS sniper. While you're all counting the contradictions in that very short sentence, I'll be on the next point.

Is the character likable?
Note: I don't mean 'likable' as in 'morally good.' A well-crafted villain protagonist can be just as interesting a character as the Boy-Scoutiest of heroes. Let me be more blunt: is the character a douche and, if so, does her/his behavior go on uncalled? The tenth Fellowship member verbally castrates Boromir and Sam every chance she/he gets while everyone else watches and laughs. The fifth Survivor opens fire on a crowd of uninfected people without provocation and everyone else pays it no mind. That sort of thing.

Is the character substituting herself/himself for a canonical character?
What's that? Sam's dead? Don't worry Frodo, I, [insert name here], will help you take the Ring to Mount Doom! Along the way, we can explore how deeply in wuv with each other we are.

Is the character violating the rules of the canon without a proper and believable explanation?
'Proper and believable' are key words here. Anyone can make excuses for why their extra Organization XIII member can feel genuine emotions, or why their intelligent Special Infected OC has fully-functioning wings. If said excuses don't fit the rules of the world, then something is wrong.

Anyway, that's what I feel about this issue. I hope that all made sense and wasn't just me babbling.

(DISCLAIMER: THIS IS ONLY ONE PERSON'S OPINION. IT MAY NOT BE UTTERLY CORRECT, BUT SHE'S TRYING TO PUT IT OUT THERE IN ORDER TO FIND THE 'MOST CORRECT' THING,SO SHE CAN THEN FOLLOW THAT.)

The PPC doesn't go after authors, but what makes a Sue a Sue is very much an author's fault... whether the author knows it or not, the hallmark of a Suefic is that it somehow achieves a secret goal, one that doesn't exist to fit into the canon at all... but one that takes over and tramples it into the ground.

For example. I know this was true for me when I wrote suefics... I was 13 years old, and I was lonely, and I had no friends, and I felt my parents thought I was a useless shlub who couldn't do anything. And so what did I write? A 18 year old, sexy, popular, sassy girl who canons were friends with (despite the story!), who had amazing abilities (that didn't fit into canon at all) and saved the day (undermining the efforts of the canon characters).

I didn't realize it at the time, but I exorcised all of my desperate wants and insecurities as a character that ruined a story for her own gain. That character wanted so much. She was like a demon, that just wanted everything to satisfy her, and when she sucked the canon dry of everything she wanted in life, she didn't even care about finishing the story. It scares me today that I wrote such a horrid, shallow character. I didn't even realize I was doing it at the time... but my ulterior motives were there.

I'm not a stupid person for it. I just wasn't aware of what I was doing, and was possessed by the need to negatively channel my frustrations into writing (Write a story where NO ONE GIVES HER TROUBLE! NO ONE! NOT LIKE REAL LIFE!) rather than positively (Write a story where the hero overcomes problems and becomes a stronger person!). So that's why we don't get mad at Suethors... it's temporary.

But the Sue. How many times have you read a story and been like, 'Why does everything end up as a sex dream for this character? It's like a hand of God keeps handing her sex scenes for no reason,' or 'Why is this story continually trying to convince me that this character is cool? Can't he speak for himself?' Yeah, those are Sue/Stu stories. They break your suspension of disbelief because the person making them ignores the storytelling in favor of their own emotional wants. Even ones they aren't aware they have, sometimes...

(And it IS perfectly possible to want something but not be aware of it. Look at so many people who are overweight who would outwardly claim that they are fine with how they look, or fine with exercising to stay in shape, but also feel unwelcome in society... wishing they were accepted. I know when I was younger and felt that way, I suddenly had a lot of effortlessly 'skinny' characters... and I didn't realize why...)

As for Tamora Pierce, I suspect she's been very jaded by people defining Sues simply as 'female character with special traits.' I would be too, if a thousand people without organization insulted me and said my characters were shallow every day. But I don't think say... Alanna was a Mary Sue. She was confronted by very big problems and mostly overcame them on her own merits, no matter what special traits she had. One scene comes back to me vividly: when she discovers her training lance has been weighted to make her fail. And yet, she doesn't solve it by being special. She solves it by practicing and practicing and practicing until she succeeds with the rigged heavy lance and it makes her a stronger person.

She doesn't do anything she does because OUTSIDE THE STORY the person writing her 'secretly wants attention' or because 'she has insecurity issues' and is living vicariously through her. Her motivations exist within the story, INSIDE the story, and if she's insecure at times, it's because SHE IS. Not because being insecure gets her something.

It makes me mad, too, that so many people (mostly not PPC people) have this definition of Sue that means 'female character with special traits within the setting' because that means that if nearly every classical hero was female, they'd be a Sue. This isn't true.

No matter how much 'stuff' a character has, I usually hold this rule for Sues:

If a character exists to tell a story, and could have gone on living in the world even if there was no story to tell, they are not a Sue.

If a character exists to simply display traits or simply be desirable in some way (whether in power of beauty! It doesn't matter, only that they REALLY WANT YOU to like them because of what they are!) without fitting in to the world itself, then they are a Sue.

Whether they are a Sue/Stu worth killing remains to be seen. My definiton of a CanonStu is a little less stringent than many. To me, characters like Drizzt or Eragon are CanonSues/Stus: concessions are handed to them in their worlds to them that aren't found anywhere else. I actually know very few CanonSues written by female writers. Most of them are actually rather recent, actually. Bella from Twilight for example.

This is because I think many female writers (at least in the past) came from an adult feminist rather than a youngminded-romantic viewpoint. Many of them were there to write about the struggles and effort of this female character, how they earn their place in the world by the sweat of their brow and their own merits. Even if they have Teh Awesome in them. I know for a fact that was Tamora Pierce's point. In fact, you quoted her ranting about her characters' feminist history...

I'm afraid that last time this point came out on the Board, I didn't know that much about groups that oppose Sues other than the PPC. Nor have I bothered to remember what I already knew. Otherwise, my posts there would have been very different from the ones I put forth. Now, I think I've learned a few things about how the "Sue-Opposing" community really functions.

There are two types of criticism directed at Suefic. One is constructive criticism, in which one tries to tell an Author what they are doing wrong without trying to sound unnecessarily combative, and flaming, in which insults are hurled at the Author as well as the fic, sometimes verging on death threats. I had only been focusing on the former.

My perception was that most sporkers were like Neshomeh, Araeph, and July, who tried to help Authors but got flamed in response because their reviews weren't 100% percent praise. Araeph even gave an example in which a 30-year old Author gave her a flame out of proportion to the criticism. Fanficrants also has many examples in which relatively benign crit is met with shouting and insults.

Then, I began checking the review pages for Suefic on FF.N. While its true that there were people trying their best to help, pointing out the qualities and flaws of the story, there are also people who go "Mary Sue, Die!" or "I want to destroy everything you love, including your cellphone". Also, for every good Sue Parody fic, there are a bunch of bad ones that focus only on superficial symptoms.

Not merely that, but on other sporking sites (I won't name names), outrage at how the canon characters are OOC shells of their former selves are often derailed into personal attacks on the Author him/herself. Ironically, those sites also call themselves feminist for tackling issues like heteronromativity, rape culture, and so on. However, they have not tackled the questions you posted, at least to my knowledge.

So, where am I going with this? Let's just say that I can't disagree with you entirely, not anymore. I still belive that the PPC isn't wrong in what it does, but that doesn't mean there isn't a double standard, or that the term "Mary Sue" isn't used too often. I think that we do need a united defnition of a Sue, and that we should speak out against those who misuse the term.

I hope I don't come as calling for a crusade, or being aggressive again. Its just that there are two sides to every picture, and to me, the PPC was just focusing on one.

For me, what makes a Sue/Stu, is not as much how the character is and what it can do, as how it affects people around it. If people instantly trusts the character and let it do things it shouldn't be getting away with, it is probably a Sue/Stu.

Take for example the beautiful, second daugther of Elrond, who falls in love with Legolas as soon as she lays eyes on him and who sneaks into the council and then jumps out and demands to go with the Fellowship. Definite - one might even say, classic - Sue, right? Except that after jumping out and making demands, she is sternly but kindly told off by Elrond and sent to her room, and the Felloweship leaves without her at dusk (or dawn, depending on 'verse). In that case she is still uncanonical, but I would say that she is not a Sue, since everyone around her acts sensibly and in character.

In fanfiction, Sues and Stues are mostly easy to spot, since we know how the canon characters are supposed to act and can spot it when they are being warped. A stranger walking in and instantly becomming friends with everyone would be a Sue in most canon, (but not, for example, My Little Pony).

CanonStues (telescope-word, yay!) are harder to spot, because we don't know whether their surroundings are acting as they usually would, we can only look at whether we think they are reasonable, based on what we know of the setting. Also, while it is easy to see when someone is stealing the spotlight, it is much harder to see when the person who belongs in the spotlight is hogging it. Most main-characters has some degree of main-characterness (which TV-Tropes has an excellent word for, which I can't remeber nor find), which means that f.ex. people in high places at least listen to them, even if the don't comply with them, so the line gets fuzzy.

While I will agree with those who say that fanfiction-Stues are mostly females and written by females, I think it is annoying if someone tries to argue that the same goes for canon-Stues. My experience are that they are 50-50, when it comes to original characters.
You are rigth that male characters get away with a lot more than women, without being called Stues. I think that has something to do with more people having heard of Sues than of Stus, but also with the general tendency to look at male characters as ... characters, while female characters get scrutinized and usually found either too weak or to strong, too feminist or not feminist enough, not a good rolemodel for girls or a two-dimensional, boring character who always do the right things.
Mikael Blomkvist from 'The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo' is not just a Stu, he is a blatant self-insert by the author, but most people don't think about that. In fact most people don't think about him at all; meanwhile Lisbeth Salander gets poked and prodded and discussed, in a way that would never have happend if she had been a male sidekick.

This contains a more-than-healthy dose of subjectivity, so be warned :)

For me, a Sue in fanfiction becomes a Sue when the canon characters start to pay undue attention to her. My favourite example is a fic I read years ago which caused me to add 'anti-Sue' to my list of Sue classifications. The author had gone to great lengths to remove all Sueish traits from the character and, in the attempt, had removed most of her interesting traits as well. I literally do not remember anything about this character apart from thinking she was rather dull and didn't seem to have much to contribute, and having the niggling feeling that something was off about the way the canon characters were treating this utterly unremarkable person. I realised what it was when Erestor and Glorfindel took time out during the couple of days around the Council of Elrond to take her for a picnic: for some reason, all the canon characters she met became fascinated by her, despite the fact that there was nothing to draw real attention. In some ways, it would have been less noticable and irritating had she been a classic Sue with ethereal beauty and five different kinds of elemental magic, because there would have been a reason for the canon characters to notice her.

That same qualification can apply to original stories, though I've not seen the problem there as much. An example that comes to mind is actually for a male character who does actually have striking good looks, a reputation and a powerful organisation backing him, so the comparison is imperfect. The book in question is Clive Cussler's Lost City and (trying not to spoil it) I felt that the villains dedicated a level of energy to eliminating Kurt Austin, the hero, that seemed quite out of proportion to the actual threat he posed, setting elaborate and dangerous traps in order to gain the satisfaction of personally killing him. James Bond villains are much the same.
In both the Kurt Austin and James Bond cases, the villains have had a chance to get to know the hero and resent him. Far more telling is the way smaller characters interact with Austin (I've read that book more recently than anything Bond, so I'll stick with that example, though I'm aware it's more obscure). In many cases they take one look at him and know he's an honest badass with a plan. I call this instatrust and count it as part of the world revolving around a Sue (or Stu, in this case, since most action heroes are pretty blatent Stus).

Although, as I say, the comparison between Kurt Austin, head of the NUMA Special Assignments team, and a random teenaged girl is imperfect, Austin's influence is correspondingly wider in scope as he can persuade people to do things like lend him expensive equipment and potentially get themselves fired from their jobs without even having to show ID. I feel that the comparison therefore stands and undue attention (including instatrust and everything that happens being connected to him/her) is a reasonable Sue trait for both fanfic and canon purposes and, as we can see from this example, applies to both male and female characters.

(Others include having objective knowledge of in-story reality and never suffering from bad consequences, but this post is already far too long. I can go into them more if anyone cares to hear about it :) )

I'm a little sorry you posted that quote from Tamora Pierce, though. I never had a problem with her - read some of her books when I was a teenager and enjoyed them, and never considered Alanna a Sue. Still don't, looking back, if only because it seemed that she earned what she got. That quote, though... I can't read it without hearing "Oh yeah? Well... you're stupid!" and it's kind of given my opinion of her a knock.

Have you a link to that litmus test? I'm always interested in tests that don't go 'Is she pretty? Is she an elf? Is she related to a canon character? She's a Sue, then.'

The essence of the problem is always the lack of character - the ridiculous names, beauty, and skills tend to just be side effects of that problem, albeit far more overt.

...this issue came up on the Board (not the IRC). So I'm a bit nervous posting my views now. However, here are my arguments:

For me, what makes a Sue or Stu is the lack of real flaws and limits, with the latter more important than the former. Most of the characters sporked by the PPC have nothing going for them except a cliched corncoupia of awesome traits and powers, with a dash of tragic backstory that is soon forgotten after some moments of angst.

True, we do encounter "Not-Sues or Not-Stus" that are physically unattractive, can't do stuff considered cool, or are devoid of 'awesome' traits to the point of flatness. But on closer inspection, they still get everything for free most of the time, and when they don't, it's meant to be treated as a moment of utter unfairness from an unfair world and everyone is supposed to sympathise with them unless they're monsters in human shape.

Here's an example: Benjamin Perry* is 18, a nerd with conspicuous pimples and oily hair and a penchant for clumsiness. But then he falls in Middle-Earth, where he is accepted instantly into Rivendell, belived right away when he says that their story is published as fiction in the far-off future, and allowed to go with the Fellowship despite his aforementioned clumsiness.

There, he keeps tripping on tree roots every so often, and his unattractive features are described once every chapter. But, everyone loves him except Boromir (who, even when he raises practical objections to Ben's coming, is still protrayed as a one-dimensional jerk with nor redeeming qualities). Then, he saves Gandalf at Moria, and at Lorien, Galadriel makes much of his 'wisdom' and 'purity', even though those aren't shown beyond a few token mentions.

Then, he prevents the Fellowship from breaking by exposing Boromir as a coveteous liar just by showing Aragorn a passage from the book. Boromir is then given a humiliating exit, and then dies soon after without doing anything to redeem himself unlike in the book. This makes him best friends forever with the rest of the Fellowship, who take him to Mordor, where despite his clumsiness, he doesn't alert the orcs and other sentries.

Once they reach Mount Doom, he then destroys the Ring by ripping it off from Frodo and throwing it into the lava himself. He also has Sam kill Gollum by informing him that he'll be trying to attack Frodo on the Mountain. Once the mountain explodes, he then reassures the Fellowship that the Eagles are going to rescue them - despite the changes already made to the story. He is then given the highest honors when they get back to Minas Tirith, with everyone including Faramir suddnly forgetting about his part in Boromir's death.

On the Obverse, we have people who are Awesome and Tragic, unrealistically so. But they have some subtle flaw, some subtle limit, that makes them not a Sue/Stu. In fact, they can even be said to be Deconstructions of Sueish traits. Sorry to remind you of one of your debates in the IRC, but for me, most powerful-but-friendless characters fall into the Subtly Flawed/Subtly Limited camp.

For example, Paul Muad'dib from Dune has a lot of Sueish charactheristcs. Noble lineage, special powers and training, and a great and tragic injustice early in his life. But what makes him not a Stu is that even when he reaches a position of power, the Universe is not willing to let him walk all over it. Not merely that, but the series does not cover up his morally dubious deeds or pass them off as unambigiously correct.

If he was a Stu, then those who plot his overthrow (and suceed) woudn't be portrayed as having points. If he was a Stu, then he would have been portrayed as the victim of an uncaring, unfair world and everyone would have been expected to overlook his dark deeds. Nor would his fall have been portrayed as self-inflicted, at least in part.

There are also characters with Sueish traits but limited spotlight. For example, Faramir of LotR is everything Boromir isn't: He is scholarly, yet a good figther nonetheless, is able to see the larger picture, and is able to resist the power of the Ring. However, he only appears for a few chapters, where he is generally helpful to the protagonists and allows them their space in the story.

In fact, there are a lot of awesome, tragic, and otherwise Sueish characthers that avoid Suedom because they show respect to the protagonists and don't try to usurp their place. You may disagree with this view (and the others that I put forth), but for me, several characters you see as Sues and Stus aren't, and some characters you see as Not Sues, but just flat characters are, as they don't do anything to earn the good things they get.

As for my views on Tamora Price's statement and the "Sue-Opposing" movement at large, I'll make another post as this one has become too big.

*A character made up just now, but based on certain archetypes spoken about on other sites.

I have seen a lot of people use the label Mary Sue on a canon female character they didn't like. The only one that comes to mind now is in the Avatar (Last Airbender, the cartoon AKA good one. I ship TophxSokka, and a lot of people just labeled the opposing love interest, Suki, a Mary Sue. It does get grating, and almost made me stop reading the stories. Feeling shame for my Ship-mates isn't fun.

As for what makes a Mary Sue...Well, I can agree with your definition a lot, actually. In an Avatar story, Sokka gets powerful with non-canon powers, and it adds a lot of Cthulhu-esque themes and a complete non-canon race! But...I read it again, and while it pings my non-canon radar, I can't dislike it. Sokka is still Sokka, and everyone still treats him like usual (still the Butt Monkey).

To be honest, Eva didn't make me angry, with her elemental powers, because I have no objection with making powers up, or being different. Even the spells heather made up, with the exclusion of the Resurrection spell, didn;t make me angry. Heather herself made me angry. She, herself, was a horrible person and got away with it all, not being called out.

If we could use/make another word instead of Mary Sue, I'd be all for it. Making one would be an interesting time, I'm sure.

Looking back on the aspects of being a Mary Sue, having super powers, being powerful, being better, then wouldn't a lot of old FPS characters be? I remember in Medal of Honor: Frontline (Remember the begining of the PS2...I feel old now..) you are a person who is named only, but never talks, or communicates, and you kill swathes of enemies, and generally win the war yourself. I guess it could be more complicated then that, but it struck me just now. Just something to ponder.

Finally got the time to read this. Nice job! It's interesting to see PPCers acting like normal people for a change, even if individually they're anything but. Heck, some of the ones who look normal are weirder than the ones who don't! Diversity is fun. ^_^

You definitely give the impression that everyone mentioned is a three-dimensional person with history, which is really cool.

~Neshomeh

This was a lot of fun to read! Very different from most PPC stories. It's excellent to see the camera focused on a previously largely-ignored portion of the PPC, and to have the action happening in the corridors for once.